Caanoo Can Run Psx, But Can It Run N64 And Dreamcast At The Same Speed


Ari64 said:
I made an option in the mupen64plus dynarec to compile without ARMv6/ARMv7 (so it can theoretically run on Caanoo). The difference was around 2% or so, not huge. Lack of FP/NEON makes a much bigger difference.

I agree, most of it is in NEON, but if you don't use NEON the ARMv6 SIMD instructions can make a big difference, if you're doing DSP-like operations. Mupen64plus only uses movt/movw and one of the extract instructions, right?
 
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Exophase said:
Ari64 said:
I made an option in the mupen64plus dynarec to compile without ARMv6/ARMv7 (so it can theoretically run on Caanoo). The difference was around 2% or so, not huge. Lack of FP/NEON makes a much bigger difference.

I agree, most of it is in NEON, but if you don't use NEON the ARMv6 SIMD instructions can make a big difference, if you're doing DSP-like operations. Mupen64plus only uses movt/movw and one of the extract instructions, right?
Yeah, there is nothing in the R4300 instruction set that is similar to the ARMv6 SIMD.

Is SIMD with two 16-bit values or four 8-bit values in a 32-bit register really all that useful?
 
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Ari64 said:
Yeah, there is nothing in the R4300 instruction set that is similar to the ARMv6 SIMD.

Is SIMD with two 16-bit values or four 8-bit values in a 32-bit register really all that useful?

It is sometimes, or else NEON wouldn't have support for it too (albeit filling up 64 or 128-bit vectors). Small (< 32-bit) multiplies are often sufficient for filter kernels and audio data and the 8-bit operations are useful for color data.
 
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Gab1975 said:
In plain terms, to compare a Cortex A8 and an ARM9EJ it's almost as to compare a Pentium and a 386DX...

Can you tell me why? Or do you have any benchmarks? It's not, that I don't believe you, but from what you say, the CPU hungry applications on the Pandora would be much faster on the Caanoo when run at the same clockspeed, which is not, what I can see from the posted Youtube videos of Pandora software.
Which technically features make the CPU so much faster?

EDIT: Looked up some datasheets, it seems, that the ARM926EJ-S performs with 1.1 DMIPS/MHz, while the A8 performs at 2 DMIPS/MHz, which would indeed make the A8 much faster in integer operations. I think in practice the A8 won't be almost twice as fast as the ARM926EJ-S, but indeed faster. I wonder, if over time, the Pandora applications will be able to take advantage of this and be much faster as on the Caanoo.
 
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Exophase said:
I'm sure in terms of raw throughput SGX530 is a lot faster in OpenGL 1.1 too, although I don't know just how big of a gap there is.

The only numbers I have are from quake runs i did a long time ago, wiz/caanoo can get about 20 fps where the pandora gets 60 fps. This is for ES 1.X functionality, and the other factor is that mupen uses es 2.0
 
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CKeichel said:
Gab1975 said:
In plain terms, to compare a Cortex A8 and an ARM9EJ it's almost as to compare a Pentium and a 386DX...

Can you tell me why? Or do you have any benchmarks? It's not, that I don't believe you, but from what you say, the CPU hungry applications on the Pandora would be much faster on the Caanoo when run at the same clockspeed, which is not, what I can see from the posted Youtube videos of Pandora software.
Which technically features make the CPU so much faster?

You didn`t even read the posts ?, Look at the previous seven posts above your original question, Ari64, Exophase and Pickle have pretty much given you all the answers. Surely the very least you can do is read them. :blink:

Trooper
 
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Exophase said:
At the same clock speed Pandora's Cortex-A8 is much faster than Wiz's ARM920T. That's because it is:

- Dual issue superscalar, ie can execute two instructions simultaneously, vs the single-issue ARM9
- Has 256KB of L2 cache, this is really huge.. if you look at some numbers of software ran on Pandora with cache disabled they're much slower than with it enabled
- DDR SDRAM is all around wider at 32-bit instead of 16-bit
- Has branch prediction which makes taken branches 1-2 cycles (depending on fetch) instead of 3 on ARM9. On the flip side mispredicted branches take 13 so for some software branches will be slower..
- Has additional instructions, primarily in ARMv6 and NEON.. you usually have to see a program specifically written for it to make a big difference but when it is it can be huge

The L2 cache is probably the single biggest advantage. It's not fair to just compare clock speed between CPUs released several years apart, Cortex-A8 is a full two generations ahead of ARM9.

I'm sure in terms of raw throughput SGX530 is a lot faster in OpenGL 1.1 too, although I don't know just how big of a gap there is.

EDIT: Meh, ninja'd ;p Forgot the FPU too. I'd hardly call it "somewhat" of a difference myself, we've been seeing reports that are more like 2x at same clock..Not surprising when you look at how badly performance usually scales with clock speed when going from GP2X to Wiz, it really needs L2 cache.

@ CKeichel: in this post Exophase explains very well because a Cortex A8 is much faster than an ARM9...

a friendly correction: the Caanoo/Wiz CPU is an ARM926EJ (ARMv5TEJ), not an ARM920T (ARMv4T)... :)
 
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trooper said:
You didn`t even read the posts ?, Look at the previous seven posts above your original question, Ari64, Exophase and Pickle have pretty much given you all the answers. Surely the very least you can do is read them. :blink:

Trooper

Simply overlooked the post, sorry, thanks for the "friendly" hint.
And besides "Bubble Symphony" is never called "Bubble Symphony: The Story of Bubble Bobble 2", cause the only game the comes with the Tagline "The Story of Bubble Bobble 2" is "Rainbow Islands" plus "Bubble Memories" is not called "Bubble Bobble 3", it is called "The Story of Bubble Bobble 3". Surely, the very least you can do is look the names correct up. ;)

@ Exophase
Thanks for the detailed answer.

@ Gab1975
You are of course right, I looked it up in the Wiki and somehow mixed it up with the other model, there are definitely to many Arm CPUs out there. :)
 
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I think this might be the solution to your N64 needs :lol:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgyzuFMfJ4Q
 
coldfis said:
Just to confuse matters ;)

Why can an Xbox360 "emulate" an Xbox (how backward compatibility works) - Yet the PS3 (which Sony say is far more powerful than a 360) can't emulate a PS2 (which is less powerful than an Xbox)?

Work this out and you'll answer all your own questions. :p


NOTE. The Original 60 GB and 20 GB Playstation 3's had the PS2 Hardware Built onto the Motherboards (Why they were so Expensive). When the 2nd Gen 80 GB came out, it included a PS2 Software Emulator. It ran MOST of the PS2 Games. The Software CPU was 100% Complete, but the GPU (Graphic Processing Unit) was only 86% complete. That is why SOME PS2 Games (Final Fantasy 12) will not work and reboots the PS3. The Games are Touching the GPU in places NOT complete and therefore, not Emulated. Saying all this, the PS3 Emulated the PS2 just Fine, but Sony Pulled PS2 Emulation from the PS3 and started to manufacture MORE PS2 figuring that the PS2/PS3 Emulation caused a bit of a Resurgence of PS2 Game Sales and Caused Developers to Renew their bid to make PS2 Games. This was short lived due to Sony Removing the PS2 Emulation on the PS3. Funny thing is 2 years after Sony Pulled the Plug on PS2 Emulation for the PS3, they submitted a U.S. Copywright for a Completed Software Emulated GPU for the PS2 on the PS3. They Still deny that the PS3 will ever get PS2 Emulation. Also keep in mind that Every Single PS3 to date will play PS1 Games with no problems. Sony still pisses me off for removing Linux Support.
 
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so i see that caanoo, wiz, dingoo can run a psx at a descent speed, but how come it cant run n64 witch has lower graphics or the dreamcast witch is just at the same, if there is such software i would like to know. Also i have seen the OpenPandora run n64 and seen no gp2x's run it, i have seen few psp's witch aren't made to emulate run sonic adventure 2 this makes me very confused.

And to further muddy the waters and answer the very original question:

The Nintendo64 has a 64-bit processor, running at close to 100MHz, and while it has a narrow 32-bit system bus, the fact remains that its a 64-bit system.

The Dreamcast runs a SH-4, which is 32-bit, with superscalar capabilities (two-way instruction handling), at 200 Mhz.

The PSX has a 32-bit processor clocking at about 35MHz.

There's a very skewed, but apt to this discussion, evaluation of whether one system can emulate another: that it requires the one system be 10 times faster than the emulated hardware. So, a Caanoo with an overclocked ARMv5 can handle PSX emulation, but N64 emulator would require something closer to 1Ghz to emulator properly (for reference, the Nokia N900 mentioned above running Mugen has a Cortex-A8 that can overclock to 1.15 Ghz).

As this discussion proves, there's a lot more to it than simple math, but at the very least its a baseline to work with as far as expectations of what one system can do.

*Of course, most games made for the N64 never took much advantage of the 64-bit architecture, and generally used 32-bit operations, since it was fast enough and detailed enough to provide for the graphics-processor, so maybe that point is somewhat moot.
 
ruffnutts said:
If I could code I would do a N64 Emulator just for proof of concept see what happens :lol:
You would only be frustrated to see almost every game running at 2-3 fps.
Even actual PC´s are working hard for emulating N64.
 
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First of all the nintendo 64 is twice as powerful as the Ps1 in every way. Graphics, Proccesor you name it
Second of all its got more floating points which makes the n64 even harder to emulate
its pretty much the same for the dreamcast except it is twice as powerful as the n64 so the dreamcast is 4x more powerful than the ps1.
nintendo 64 likes the pandora it does not the the wiz or the caanoo
:pandora2ut4: :rolleyes: | :wiz: :(
 
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