Backtrack

[BackAssward]

I'm on a Cisco course. You have to learn how to hack networks (White Hat hacking). That is all.

People who think there is no legal hacking/cracking are silly. How do you know if there is a security hole unless you look for it? lol.

 

[WizardStan]

People who think there is no legal hacking/cracking are silly. How do you know if there is a security hole unless you look for it? lol.

There's a difference between taking an official certification course, and assuring people on the internet that your intentions are benign when you ask for help

 

[BackAssward]

People who think there is no legal hacking/cracking are silly. How do you know if there is a security hole unless you look for it? lol.

There's a difference between taking an official certification course, and assuring people on the internet that your intentions are benign when you ask for help

True, but I wasn't talking about ethics, intent, or trustworthiness... I was replying to the "no legal" comments, which are not true.

 

[trix]

People who think there is no legal hacking/cracking are silly. How do you know if there is a security hole unless you look for it? lol.

There's a difference between taking an official certification course, and assuring people on the internet that your intentions are benign when you ask for help

True, but I wasn't talking about ethics, intent, or trustworthiness... I was replying to the "no legal" comments, which are not true.

+1 This is why I don't understand this kind of discussion being lumped in with "warez" which is clearly a legal issue. Discussion of packet sniffing software (and note I asked about sniffing not injecting, my needs are passive) is about as illegal as owning a kitchen knife. I don't have to promise the store I wont stab somebody.

 

[dementio]

So is killing people for money.  h34r:

I'm sure the US government (and most others, for that matter) also employ people to "hack" various supposedly secure communication methods too. It's not illegal if you're following orders h34r:

Actually, it is still illegal if following orders, including orders by the President, that do not comply with the UCMJ

 

[ample]

I don't have to promise the store I wont stab somebody.

haha. i guess its a slippery slope. less like a knife and more like an automatic weapon. there really is no point to own an automatic weapon unless u plan on killing a lot of things(people)...

 

[hitman]

You guys are funny. Also, I want my Pandora.

 

[trix]

I don't have to promise the store I wont stab somebody.

haha. i guess its a slippery slope. less like a knife and more like an automatic weapon. there really is no point to own an automatic weapon unless u plan on killing a lot of things(people)...

Nope I'm going to stick with the knife, for most people, using an automatic weapon is illegal. Using a kitchen knife is not illegal unless the user does something illegal with it. The knife is meant to cut things, one can do that legally, if one cuts people instead, they broke the law. This is like saying "Don't talk about knives or how sharp they are it might be used badly". Using a packet sniffing tool is not illegal (it displays information my computer is receiving, so what), but if one uses it harmfully and illegally they broke the law.

- trix

 

[WizardStan]

This is like saying "Don't talk about knives or how sharp they are it might be used badly".

The analogy is flawed. There are basically two types of people that use packet sniffers/injectors/etc: those with ill intent, or those that are certified and paid to do the sniffing they are doing. There's also a third group of people that are just curious about stuff, but in my experience they either quickly move on to something else once their curiosity has been quelled or become one of the first two groups, so they don't really count.
In contrast, a knife is used by a lot of different people for a lot of different reasons. It can cut food, it is a weapon, it is a hammer and screwdriver, it can be decorative, it can be entertaining. It is casually used by almost everyone every day. The casual user isn't likely to use a packet sniffer.
When you're talking about a knife, the set of illegal things that people hear done with it are far eclipsed by the legal things they know happens with it. Someone asking for a knife online has a much more likely chance of just wanting something that can cut their steak than to cut their boss.
When talking about these sorts of cracking tools, the line between legal and illegal is much sharper. Combined with the notion that someone being paid to do it has likely taken a course and probably already has the tools available to them, the odds that someone asking for such a tool has malign intent in mind increases sharply, and people would be foolish not to be cautious.
A better analogy would be someone asking where they can buy bleach and ammonia online: two perfectly legal chemicals, with very normal uses, but the fact that someone wants to buy both at the same time should cause some questioning.

 

[WizardStan]

edit: what

 

[WizardStan]

edit: the

 

[WizardStan]

edit: deuce?

 

[elwing]

This is like saying "Don't talk about knives or how sharp they are it might be used badly".

The analogy is flawed. There are basically two types of people that use packet sniffers/injectors/etc: those with ill intent, or those that are certified and paid to do the sniffing they are doing. There's also a third group of people that are just curious about stuff, but in my experience they either quickly move on to something else once their curiosity has been quelled or become one of the first two groups, so they don't really count.
In contrast, a knife is used by a lot of different people for a lot of different reasons. It can cut food, it is a weapon, it is a hammer and screwdriver, it can be decorative, it can be entertaining. It is casually used by almost everyone every day. The casual user isn't likely to use a packet sniffer.
When you're talking about a knife, the set of illegal things that people hear done with it are far eclipsed by the legal things they know happens with it. Someone asking for a knife online has a much more likely chance of just wanting something that can cut their steak than to cut their boss.
When talking about these sorts of cracking tools, the line between legal and illegal is much sharper. Combined with the notion that someone being paid to do it has likely taken a course and probably already has the tools available to them, the odds that someone asking for such a tool has malign intent in mind increases sharply, and people would be foolish not to be cautious.
A better analogy would be someone asking where they can buy bleach and ammonia online: two perfectly legal chemicals, with very normal uses, but the fact that someone wants to buy both at the same time should cause some questioning.

your logic is a bit flawed... I wonder what is the proportion of people using emulators legally...

 

[laurencevde]

There's a third category, and that's the group that wants to test the security of their (and their friends, relatives etc) networks, or prove to people how weak their security is. It's just wrong placing someone in the first category just because he asks about it...

About emulators: USAGE of them is legal. Copyright doesn't handle usage, just copying. Getting those roms is a different story, but the only one that can sue you is the copyright-holder (or someone he authorized to do so on his behalf), and if he no longer cares, then it's almost completely safe. Oh, and it should be the copyright-holder's responsibility to prove that you didn't make the copy of the rom in a legal way...

 

[WizardStan]

your logic is a bit flawed... I wonder what is the proportion of people using emulators legally...

Nope, my logic is sound for everything that I talked about. I didn't mention emulators. If you want, we can though. It'd be a pretty boring discussion though, I should think.

 

[WizardStan]

There's a third category, and that's the group that wants to test the security of their (and their friends, relatives etc) networks, or prove to people how weak their security is. It's just wrong placing someone in the first category just because he asks about it...

I talked about that third category, people that are just curious, and like I said, in my experience these people are usually one-offs (once they've established their security or lack thereof they move on) or become one of the first two, becoming so enamored by security that they take official courses and get a job doing it, or continue to up their personal challenge until they go one step too far.
And it may be wrong to place someone in the first category just because he asks, but it's also wrong to assume he's not in the first category is what I was saying: the odds that someone asking about packet sniffing has ill intent can be reasoned to be noticeable, to not even question it would be foolish.

 

[dgame]

Hacking is not illegal. Every person contributing code to the Pandora project is a hacker, in the original sense of the word. Cracking is illegal. So is killing people for money. h34r:

Do yourself a great service and seek out a documentary called The Secret History of Hacking.

Love the documentaries about old technology.

The phone stuff was way before my time, but I have one of these framed on my desk:

Yo-ho-ho!

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/TECH/internet/11/19/hack.history.idg/

 

[trix]

This is like saying "Don't talk about knives or how sharp they are it might be used badly".

The analogy is flawed. There are basically two types of people that use packet sniffers/injectors/etc: those with ill intent, or those that are certified and paid to do the sniffing they are doing. There's also a third group of people that are just curious about stuff, but in my experience they either quickly move on to something else once their curiosity has been quelled or become one of the first two groups, so they don't really count.
In contrast, a knife is used by a lot of different people for a lot of different reasons. It can cut food, it is a weapon, it is a hammer and screwdriver, it can be decorative, it can be entertaining. It is casually used by almost everyone every day. The casual user isn't likely to use a packet sniffer.
When you're talking about a knife, the set of illegal things that people hear done with it are far eclipsed by the legal things they know happens with it. Someone asking for a knife online has a much more likely chance of just wanting something that can cut their steak than to cut their boss.
When talking about these sorts of cracking tools, the line between legal and illegal is much sharper. Combined with the notion that someone being paid to do it has likely taken a course and probably already has the tools available to them, the odds that someone asking for such a tool has malign intent in mind increases sharply, and people would be foolish not to be cautious.
A better analogy would be someone asking where they can buy bleach and ammonia online: two perfectly legal chemicals, with very normal uses, but the fact that someone wants to buy both at the same time should cause some questioning.

I disagree, I believe the analogy more accurate then you imply. There are other uses, groups of people, that you did not consider. As I said I myself use it for sniffing packets sent to my computer from video game servers. The tool itself only reads info coming to your computer, I should not be questioned or assumed anything because I want to view information sent to my computer. There are a LOT of people, thousands, that use packet sniffing to view information about games, and quite a lot that use packet injecting to cheat hack or edit the game as they wish. Also, writing custom servers for these games requires a LOT of packet sniffing, and there are server emulators for tons of games out there with very active communities. I myself am a huge fan of the MageStorm server emulator over at extrinsicality.net.

Also, about the bleach and ammonia, that is a good analogy also, and asking somebody what their intent is in that case I can see as reasonable. Asking intent, yes. However I wasn't asked about my intent, instead I'm told asking about those tools itself is taboo, as if I am already assumed to have illegal intent. This, is what I don't understand as much.

I welcome your feedback!
- trix

 

[WizardStan]

There are a LOT of people, thousands, that use packet sniffing to view information about games, and quite a lot that use packet injecting to cheat hack or edit the game as they wish.

There are thousands, maybe tens of thousands of people that use packet sniffers legally, and hundreds and maybe thousands that use them illegally.
There are hundreds of millions of people that use knives on a daily basis for entirely legal things, and a few thousand that use them for illegal. The comparison doesn't even come close. If someone asks for a knife, there's an insignificant chance that person wants to harm someone with it (unless they're giving clues, like "good for killing people with"), whereas there's a noticeable, even if it's only 5% (although I honestly suspect, taking all other factors into account, it is much closer to 50%), chance that someone asking about packet sniffers has ill intentions.

Also, about the bleach and ammonia, that is a good analogy also, and asking somebody what their intent is in that case I can see as reasonable. Asking intent, yes. However I wasn't asked about my intent, instead I'm told asking about those tools itself is taboo, as if I am already assumed to have illegal intent. This, is what I don't understand as much.

Anyone can lie on the internet. Would you rather turn away 95 innocent people and cause no harm, or supply information to 5 people that could cause a lot of trouble? Safer to do that latter, especially if the numbers are closer to 50/50 as I suspect.

Also, writing custom servers for these games requires a LOT of packet sniffing, and there are server emulators for tons of games out there with very active communities. I myself am a huge fan of the MageStorm server emulator over at extrinsicality.net.

A bit of an anecdote and a jab to your argument, but: You are correct, it does require a lot of packet sniffing. I worked on an Everquest server reimplementation way back in the day (Everquest the first!), and you know what? I was given the tools I needed! I didn't have to ask a random forum for anything, because the guys doing most of the reimplementation had the skills necessary to put together all the tools to do exactly what they needed. They had taken courses on network traffic which became a fundamental part of what they were trying to accomplish. If you're on such a team and do not already possess the skill, I suggest you may be in over your head. If you want to help a server emulator like this Magestorm at extrinsicality.net, their forum is the best place to ask, not ours. They should have such a tool as I used to use that's specifically geared towards that particular game that can take better readings than a generic packet sniffer can.

 

[trix]

You worked on EQEmu!? Which one? AFAIK There was HackersQuest, Agx Emu (which got renamed EQEmu when tuxracer and I left the project due to drama, and is the one that's popular today), and the failed Ruby rewrite of ethernalquest.

Perhaps you remember me, I was known on that community as Icon. I also was admin on forever-hacking.net for awhile. Were you known as WizardStan?

Back on topic:

The MageStorm emulator is not open source (yet, he may change his mind) so I cannot contribute, but back when I was working on EQEmu, tuxracer and I (and the guy called Agz X that started it) decided what tools we were going to use to begin with, then put them on the website's download area for others to use. But when initially deciding what to use, we had to research and ask around and discover the pros and cons of the tools available. Tuxracer might have experience with win32dasm but didn't know the first thing about softice, which I'm old enough to love. I didn't know anything about GHU (Game Hacking Utility, memory offset changing) which tuxracer and Agz X loved, but I used tools they hadn't heard of like BloodShed Dev C++ as a IDE/compiler.

That goes moreso for linux. I love linux, I've been using Gentoo for years, but I've never tried to do that kind of thing on linux, and thus have no idea what tools are available and what I could use. Obviously a google search would answer that question (and a quick browse of Angstrom repo), but I was just commenting as I've never seen a linux community afraid to discuss included tools.

I do however agree about the knife analogy thing. You are correct the probable statistics make my analogy inaccurate.

- trix