"AT LAST, SIR TERRY, WE MUST WALK TOGETHER."....


Klumpen

Run away! Run away!
Joined
Nov 19, 2011
Messages
8,579
Location
Uncanny Valley
Times are a bit different for creators today. Although I don't know life of Kafka, I'll use some more local example. By the end of XIX century a poet C.K. Norwid died. He wanted his works and notes to be destroyed (and in fact a part was). Today his poems are published. Fortunately in unchanged form.
Let's imagine thar mr. Norwid died in the beginning of 21th century, not ending of 19th. So first, there would be a small court battle between companies. Finally, the one which paid the biggest cash would hire copywriters, finish works from notes, make derivatives and place ads in as many places as possible before publishing.
In this perspective the steam roller looks to be the better idea.
The thing is, that Kafka's work is more like a private diary and wasn't meant to be published at all and he specifically stated that afaik.
 

_jr_

Advanced Member
Joined
May 5, 2013
Messages
1,170
The thing is, that Kafka's work is more like a private diary and wasn't meant to be published at all and he specifically stated that afaik.
Yes, but Kafka's work significantly enriches life on this planet. It's obviously a difficult decision. Personally I think deliberately destroying creative work is never the right thing to do (for whatever reason, independent of subjective value; even when the creators do it themselves). To me creativity transcends individuality and even the concept of IP is crap, but I can sympathize with the feeling that one's ideas are an important part of oneself, and the desire to control them.

There also may be creative works where it is desirable for society to not have them publicly displayed, but that is another controversy.
 

Klumpen

Run away! Run away!
Joined
Nov 19, 2011
Messages
8,579
Location
Uncanny Valley
There also may be creative works where it is desirable for society to not have them publicly displayed, but that is another controversy.
Who is the judge here and who decides what shall be published and what now? On what grounds?
Imho it should always be the creators decision, including Kafka. Yes, I really like his work but we especially shouldn't have had that in school out of respect for the author's wishes.
 

_jr_

Advanced Member
Joined
May 5, 2013
Messages
1,170
Who is the judge here and who decides what shall be published and what now? On what grounds?

That would be the weighing up of free speech vs. slander / protection of minors / sedition / etc. already in place (though quite different in each jurisdictions). I personally think that some (judicial) abridgement of free speech is acceptable and even desirable, but since I don't have solid scientific evidence that this really is a good thing I certainly respect differing opinions.

Imho it should always be the creators decision, including Kafka. Yes, I really like his work but we especially shouldn't have had that in school out of respect for the author's wishes.

Yes, I agree that the author's wishes are very important, but I believe there are circumstances where benefit for society may be more important. It is one of the things where IMO there can be no fully satisfying solution, therefore it is important that it can be brought before a judge and appealed if necessary (and I think that is the case now in most jurisdictions, though obviously not by the dead persons themselves).

In the special case of Kafka I agree that most of his writing is very intimate and reading him is quite voyeuristic, but it is so powerful to experience the account of another person not fitting, struggling and losing that I believe the world would be a that much worse a place without his writing, that it was the right decision to go against his wishes. And read him in schools, especially. I also don't have solid evidence for this opinion:)
 

Caine

Hardcore Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2008
Messages
4,138
Location
Netherlands
That is sacrificing the will of the one for the benefit of the masses... that kind of mob-mentality just strikes me as plain disgusting and barbaric. No offense intended and apologies for the strong wording if any is taken.
 

matzesu

Forum Addict!
Staff member
Joined
Oct 24, 2008
Messages
12,525
Age
38
Location
Germany,, Saarland, at home
In his last books (Raising Steam, Snuff) i wrote from him, he mentioned the "Goblins" which became a part of the Community, maybe in some of his unfinished work, maybe Goblins became Members of the Guard of Ankh Morpork or something,
So the World not only lost a great Book Writer, its also lost maybe some great Diskworld Books..
 

_jr_

Advanced Member
Joined
May 5, 2013
Messages
1,170
That is sacrificing the will of the one for the benefit of the masses... that kind of mob-mentality just strikes me as plain disgusting and barbaric. No offense intended and apologies for the strong wording if any is taken.

Well, but that sacrificing is happening all the time. I suspect quite a lot of people would prefer to not pay taxes.

The problem with absolutes is that you can choose only one (and have to stick to it to stay credible). Then everything else will always be a tradeoff. While honoring the wishes of the deceased is a worthy cause, I personally wouldn't choose it as an absolute, and I fail to see any connection to 'A large or disorderly group of people; especially one bent on riotous or destructive action.' (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mob; there is no entry on mob-mentality, so perhaps I'm just not getting the proper meaning).

Consider hypothetically that the unpublished works of Terry Pratchett had the power to cure a fatal disease one of your loved ones has contracted. The works of Kafka are equally powerful to me. I'd hate to see them destroyed and I wouldn't feel like I'm the barbarian.
 

Caine

Hardcore Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2008
Messages
4,138
Location
Netherlands
Well, but that sacrificing is happening all the time. I suspect quite a lot of people would prefer to not pay taxes.
Well obviously. Any non-voluntary contribution, such as tax, is theft. By definition. The government, being a criminal organisation which steals money from people under threat of violence, cares little for such ethics. I would be more than happy to have a discourse on libertarian politics with you, but I do not think that this thread is the proper place to do so.
and I fail to see any connection to 'A large or disorderly group of people; especially one bent on riotous or destructive action.
Perhaps it is not the proper English word, not being a native myself, I was trying to conjure the imagery of a group of townsfolk with pitch-forks and torches coming to claim that what was once yours now is rightfully theirs.
Consider hypothetically that the unpublished works of Terry Pratchett had the power to cure a fatal disease one of your loved ones has contracted.
That by itself is hardly a justification to steal from the deceased and/or appropriate someones property. Regretful it may be, in that case I would mourn the loss of my loved ones as well as Sir Pratchett.
 

ible

professional vim user
Joined
Mar 24, 2014
Messages
2,581
Location
Seattle, WA
i would have thought nederlanders would (mostly) appreciate the role of government in stopping large scale flooding and loss of human life... we're not smart enough to plan ahead over here...

and while governments might not be so nice all the time, corporations are hardly any better. and for that matter, people in general ;). scapegoating one over any of the others seems naive.

as for pratchett, i only read a handful of his books; i enjoyed one or two very much (thief of time and one of the ones about DEATH), and the others i didn't as much...
 

Binky

Death's Steed
Staff member
Joined
May 28, 2003
Messages
6,997
Location
16A (TO)
Well obviously. Any non-voluntary contribution, such as tax, is theft. By definition. The government, being a criminal organisation which steals money from people under threat of violence, cares little for such ethics. I would be more than happy to have a discourse on libertarian politics with you, but I do not think that this thread is the proper place to do so.

This seems a very provocative statement for this sort of thread.

Please can we stay, if not on-topic, a little closer to it?
 

Caine

Hardcore Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2008
Messages
4,138
Location
Netherlands
This seems a very provocative statement for this sort of thread. Please can we stay, if not on-topic, a little closer to it?
Indeed, as I already stated, I fully agree. No derail was intended, my apologies for my allergic reaction.
as for pratchett, i only read a handful of his books; i enjoyed one or two very much (thief of time and one of the ones about DEATH), and the others i didn't as much...
I read most of the diskworld series. I liked them a lot. The whole world setting and characters are just marvelously messed up. DEATH certainly is one of my favourite characters.
 

_jr_

Advanced Member
Joined
May 5, 2013
Messages
1,170
Perhaps it is not the proper English word, not being a native myself, I was trying to conjure the imagery of a group of townsfolk with pitch-forks and torches coming to claim that what was once yours now is rightfully theirs.

I seem to have misinterpreted your post. Sorry for that. Won't happen again.
 
Top