An idea pool for features that intends for professionals

[_wb_]

I don't think RAM contributes significantly to the power consumption, certainly not if we use one of the low power types of RAM like LPDDR3. I imagine it may theoretically even be possible to shut down parts of the RAM in software as long as they're not needed. At any rate, if you need to do memory-intensive stuff (like compiling OpenSCAD) it's certainly better to have 4GB RAM than to have 512MB RAM and 3.5GB swap space on an SD card, even from the power consumption point of view

The main power eaters are and will be the display and the SoC. The SoC should be more power-efficient than what we have in the current Pandora, so for similar tasks, it should not use more power.

I'm mostly worried about the display: we want something larger, higher res, better response times, which means it will eat (much) more power if we don't watch out. I'm in favor of AMOLED screens for this reason: they have great response times (no ghosting, important for gaming), and they don't have the inefficiency of backlight+filter, so only the light pixels consume power. Many games are relatively dark (on average), and for serious work I prefer a terminal with a black background, so that would consume very little power. Of course if you're mostly going to use black text on white background (e.g. LibreOffice and many websites), then the power consumption will not be better than with LCD. But it's usually easy enough to change color schemes.

 

[WizardStan]

Hdmi out, this has been discussed 1000 times already. It's no. Because you need a license for HDMI port. So you cant, unless you want to pay your Pandora double the price.

Actually, upon closer inspection of the agreements, for fewer than 10'000 units the fee is only $5000 plus $1 per unit. If they can sell 5000 units per year, that's only $2 each, which may be worthwhile. On the other hand, assuming they sold 5000 per year for the first 3 years, and then the fourth year dipped to 1000 units they'd still have to pay that $5000 licensing fee which means it would cost $6 per Pandora in that last year. Once support drops that low they would probably have to remove the HDMI port.

 

[_wb_]

I think we should use (dual-mode) DisplayPort or Mini DisplayPort instead of HDMI. It is royalty-free and you can get HDMI and DVI output from it with a passive adapter, and like HDMI, it provides power so you can have an active adapter (e.g. for VGA output) without needing to power it externally. In the near future most monitors and beamers will have DisplayPort connectors, so you may not even need the passive adapter.

The DisplayPort is a bit big (16.1x4.76mm for the normal one, 8.3x5.4mm for mini) compared to HDMI (13.9x4.45mm for normal type A, 10.42x2.42mm for the mini type C, 6.4x2.8mm for the micro type D), but I don't think that's going to be a big problem, and it will probably feel more sturdy too.

Of the two (HDMI vs DisplayPort), DisplayPort is the more "Open" standard, and it's technically also the most advanced (more bandwidth, longer cables possible), at least for our type of purposes. Even if HDMI didn't have the licensing fee, there would be reasons to pick DisplayPort.

 

[origimbo]

I can only speak from personal experience, but i think the mini display port is achieving pretty reasonable market penetration as a "mobile video connector" already from macs and the new dell XPS etc, so a fair proportion of people connecting to external displays (vga/hdmi) already have the cable.

 

[WizardStan]

A casual search brings up the cheapest DisplayPort->HDMI adapters I can find at $6. If you already have such an adapter then there's no problem, but if all you really want is HDMI then that's a $4 premium beyond the HDMI licensing. $4 per Pandora adds up to $20'000 per year excess. But then maybe only 50% of the people will actually want the output (or don't already have the adapter): they could sell the adapters to that 50% at the originally estimated $2 licensing fee (lowering the cost of the Pan, taking a $4 loss, and cost the same in the end. Or maybe there's a sufficient demand that they can charge $4 (for the previously $2 feature) for the adapter, taking just a $2 loss per part, for a $5000 net gain which can be used to fund other parts. It's very variable, whoever does it is going to need to do some cost/benefit analysis.

 

[fusion_power]

Battery of P2 should have a hard case and be part of be backside of the P2 case. Many Mobile Phones used that system and it feels more save and rugged than the current solution for the Pandora 1. Battery also needs a better contact solution than in P1 but this shouldn't be that hart to realize.

 

[_wb_]

The point is: as long as standard cables and adapters are readily available, I don't really care what type of display output a Pandora successor gets. ED does not need to sell the adapters or cables himself or include them in the package, as long as these adapters and cables are standard and easy to obtain. DisplayPort and HDMI are both sufficiently established that either is OK. Nobody is going to care about having to pay a few bucks for a standard adapter, which they may need anyway for their next laptop or whatever. And perhaps many people will not even use external displays at all.

From the technical point of view, I think DisplayPort has some advantages over HDMI, but nothing major.

From the practical point of view, I think HDMI currently has some advantages over DisplayPort - HDMI input is more common than DisplayPort input in TVs/monitors/beamers at the moment - but I think this is likely to change in the future; more and more monitors and beamers have DisplayPort input.

From the economic point of view, the main advantage of DisplayPort is that you don't have to take the yearly $5000 license fee (+ $1 per unit) into account. You are estimating $2 per unit (actually you forgot the additional $0.05 royalty fee per unit, but let's say that is insignificant) -- but that is based on an arbitrary assumption of selling 5000 units per year. If it turns out (not in the first year, but in the second or third year) that they can only sell 500 units per year, then the license fee turns out not to be $2 per unit but $11 per unit. To be on the safe side, you better take some worst-case scenarios into account when determining the end-user sales price, so from that point of view, I wouldn't estimate the extra licensing cost of HDMI at $2 but rather at $10 or more.

Overall, I see no convincing reason to use HDMI.

 

[Franko]

that would be manageable and bring a lot more emulation possibilities to us.

Emulation has nothing to do with RAM... 

Fine.  Maybe my "terminology" is off a bit.  I'm talking about the ability to run more recent software by emulating more powerful (more recent) computing platforms.  If you have a more advanced "P2" with a more capable Soc, then you will in theory be able to run more memory intensive programs on an emulated platform.  Maybe it's "NAND" that I mean?  I've heard that the reason that we don't have printing capabilities is that there just wasn't enough NAND to support "CUPS" along with our Angstrom OS.  I'm still learning about my favorite computer everyday.  If I'm wrong about certain details, then tell me - I appreciate being set straight on things.  Sometimes a 7 word sentence doesn't suffice.

Edit 1:  Also, I'm still for a HDMI-out standard for a "P2".  The costs are negligible (IMO).  If it means making the unit $2-$10 more to the consumer, then I say why not?  ED even said that he'd be up for it, so why adopt an old or relatively unknown* standard?


*arguably

 

[WizardStan]

You're using the term "emulate" wrong. Emulate means to take one thing and treat it as something completely different. Running SNES games, for example, the Pandora emulates an SNES. Running DOS games the Pandora emulates an x86 running DOS.

Most of the software on the Pandora is not emulated, it is all native. Firefox was built for the Pandora, it loads webpages exactly as they would be on the desktop. Even game ports, like Duke3D, are native builds, no emulation there. The Pandora is a computer, running computer software compiled for the Pandora. CUPS is just another program, like Firefox or Abiword, or Duke3D, or whatever else you might run, except it handles the print services. In this case NAND is the word you're looking for, extra RAM would do nothing for CUPS.

For emulation, actually treating the Pandora as if it were a different system, you wouldn't really see much benefit. Only the more recent consoles have extensive RAM. The PS2 only had 40MB of combined RAM, it wouldn't be difficult to emulate that on the Pandora in 256MB. Of course, by the time we have a handheld system capable of emulating a PS2 I'm quite certain RAM will be the least of our concerns.

There's a few ways that more RAM might be useful; DraStic loads zipped ROMs into memory, for example, so larger ROMs need more RAM, but that doesn't make it any faster, just easier.

The biggest benefit to more RAM is being able to do more at once. More word documents open, more tabs open in Firefox, MP3 player, and GIMP all open at the same time.

So to recap... uh... you've been using the term "emulation" wrong, and to have "more stuff" you want "more NAND". To do more at once you need more RAM, basically.

If it means making the unit $2-$10 more to the consumer, then I say why not?

Because DisplayPort may be better. It is better in many cases, but not all. The only practical thing HDMI has going for it over DisplayPort is that everyone has a cable, and if you don't have a cable you can buy a cheap one just about anywhere. When dollar stores (and regional equivalents) start carrying DisplayPort adapters or TVs start shipping with them then there will be no benefit to HDMI.

 

[Binky]

I don't particularly like the idea of ongoing HDMI licence fees because of their potential impact of the commercial life span. I'd hope someone continues to sell P2s when they can only sell 500 per year or fewer, if there are left over parts and/or is still demand.

I wouldn't want another complexity to juggle around such an already fragile product.

 

[Franko]

Thanks for the clarification, WizardStan, but how is - 

Running SNES games, for example, the Pandora emulates an SNES.

different from what I said - 

I'm talking about the ability to run more recent software by emulating more powerful (more recent) computing platforms.

?  Minus the semantics of what "more powerful" and what "more recent" means to you.  I said "emulating computing platforms".  That seems to fit what you're describing as the proper definition of the word.  I do sometimes get words mixed up though, and I realize that when in Rome (Rome being a forum full of techno-nerds in this case), I really should pick my words more carefully.  Duly noted.  Thanks at least for the reply.  That's far more preferable to the smirks, and eye-rolling that my ignorant posts must draw from around the globe.  

 

[_wb_]

Edit 1:  Also, I'm still for a HDMI-out standard for a "P2".  The costs are negligible (IMO).  If it means making the unit $2-$10 more to the consumer, then I say why not?  ED even said that he'd be up for it, so why adopt an old or relatively unknown* standard?


*arguably

DisplayPort is not old, in fact it's more recent (2006) than HDMI (2002). It may be relatively unknown at the moment, but that will almost certainly change in the near future, and we should design for the future, not the present.

Maybe we should go for MyDP (Mobility DisplayPort) like the Nexus 4. That would save quite some space since it uses a micro-USB port which we would probably have anyway (next to a full USB port). You could even charge your unit with power provided by the external display, connect low-speed usb devices like a keyboard and mouse too, and have uncompressed 1080p at 60Hz, all over the same cable and with only one connector on the end of the unit.

See: http://www.vesa.org/news/vesa-enables-mobile-devices-to-share-full-hd-video-and-3d-content-on-any-display-with-release-of-mydp-standard/

I expect that by the time a Pandora successor is ready, DisplayPort will have replaced HDMI on laptops and desktop PCs, and on mobile platforms MyDP could very well become the norm if some more popular smartphones start using it, which seems likely because the advantage of needing only one port (micro-USB with MyDP) instead of needing two ports -- one port for charging and data (micro-USB) and another port for video output (micro-HDMI) -- is quite huge for something like a smartphone. MHL offers some of the same advantages, but MyDP seems better imo.

 

[Franko]

^ If that is indeed true, or readily available DisplayPort-to-HDMI adapters are cheap and plentiful for the "P2" consumer, then I say great!  That saves the OP Team an annual fee.  I was just thinking that the current situation that we have now (with the P1) is something that we should avoid.  I like adopting worldwide standards and not proprietary/difficult ones.   You and Binky are swaying me....

 

[_wb_]

Here's an article that explains some of the technical differences between the HDMI and DisplayPort:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2030669/hdmi-vs-displayport-which-display-interface-reigns-supreme-.html

 

[WizardStan]

?  Minus the semantics of what "more powerful" and what "more recent" means to you.  I said "emulating computing platforms".  That seems to fit what you're describing as the proper definition of the word.

It depends entirely on what you mean by "computing platform" I guess. You want to run Windows XP? Yes, that would be emulation and more RAM would be helpful. You want to "emulate" Doom 3? That wouldn't be emulation, the source is available and can theoretically be ported to the Pandora (theoretically, not practically, don't ask).From your wording I assumed you were talking about the latter, running more complex software and games. If you really did mean you wanted to emulate systems like the PS2 or Gamecube etc then my apologies, you are using the term correctly, your semantics were just weird.

But as I said, consoles don't really have a lot of RAM in them. The PS2 has only 40MB which should easily be emulatable in the Pandora's 256+MB. Even the PS3 only has 256MB which is outside of what the Pandora can handle but doesn't exactly require multiple gigabytes to get to. Ultimately the RAM isn't the bottleneck anyway, the CPU (and GPU) is where you'd see the most improvement. By the time we have a CPU that is capable of emulating a PS2 large amounts of RAM will be both cheap and standard.

 

[_wb_]

A quick Google search for adapter prices:

http://www.monoprice.com/products/subdepartment.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10428

so you can get mini-DP to DVI or HDMI for $5.70, and to VGA for $11.06 (more expensive because it requires digital to analog conversion). Those prices are probably only going to drop.

 

[WizardStan]

we should design for the future, not the present.

The unfortunate problem with trying to design for the future is that you can sometimes guess wrong. Pity those that bet on HD-DVD. DisplayPort is definitely the superior standard, so given the track record of adoption that means that it will be dropped shortly.

 

[xiongxioi]

$5000 bucks is kinda a lot, even for a project like this. ED can mail out a batch of 30 pandoras for 2100 Euros, I would rather let he and his buddies have these, than handing them out to those fat cats.

However, this is kinda a selling point. Many technicians these days don't have that many adapters laying around, and they know next to nothing about computers. It's also a pain if you go to present your stuffs in front of your colleagues, and then find out you don't have your adapter with you. This may be a deal or break point to them. So, consideration is needed. I would like to go to the local electronic retailers, and have a look at their projectors and tvs. If Displayports are present on most of the products they are selling, then it would be a great alternative.

AMOLED looks really promising, it's as pretty as OLED, but a bit less power hungery. It looks expensive though, and I'm not sure if we can aquire them in small quantity.  

 

[Asiyura]

I use a apple laptop on daily basis, had to do some presentations on really old projectors, so I got a DVI and a VGA mini DisplayPort adapter.

They always worked like a charm even if their price were high, back then (the only one available were from Apple at 20€/piece, but you can get "noname" anywhere and far cheaper, now).

Those two adapters are always in my laptop bag (they're not large, about the size of a small matchstick box), I never lost them, never broke them, and that way I've always them with me when needed.

The mini DisplayPort feel far more sturdier than most HDMI connectors.

I think it's really a good contender for portable devices and should be considered seriously instead of HDMI.

 

[urisma]

?  Minus the semantics of what "more powerful" and what "more recent" means to you.  I said "emulating computing platforms".  That seems to fit what you're describing as the proper definition of the word.

It depends entirely on what you mean by "computing platform" I guess. You want to run Windows XP? Yes, that would be emulation and more RAM would be helpful. You want to "emulate" Doom 3? That wouldn't be emulation, the source is available and can theoretically be ported to the Pandora (theoretically, not practically, don't ask).
From your wording I assumed you were talking about the latter, running more complex software and games. If you really did mean you wanted to emulate systems like the PS2 or Gamecube etc then my apologies, you are using the term correctly, your semantics were just weird.


But as I said, consoles don't really have a lot of RAM in them. The PS2 has only 40MB which should easily be emulatable in the Pandora's 256+MB. Even the PS3 only has 256MB which is outside of what the Pandora can handle but doesn't exactly require multiple gigabytes to get to. Ultimately the RAM isn't the bottleneck anyway, the CPU (and GPU) is where you'd see the most improvement. By the time we have a CPU that is capable of emulating a PS2 large amounts of RAM will be both cheap and standard.

Whoa whoa whoa. 256 mb of RAM is NOT enough to emulate the PS2. 512 is pushing it. Air (aka Jake Stine) wrote up a fantastic blog post about the memory requirements that PCSX2 has. You can view it here: http://pcsx2.net/developer-blog/196-advanced-memory-management.html

It's quite difficult to extrapolate how much memory a PS3/360 would require to emulate, but it'd certainly take more than 4 gigs when you add in operating system overhead and whatnot.