After The 3000 First Batch

[AireTamStorm]

This is going to fly, I have a real Pandora on my desk in front of me right now, and you can expect some photos tomorrow, this thing is SO SMALL it is astonishing.

:blink: :angry:

 

[jbr]

Compile lynx (or links, if you prefer) for your pandora ASAP and make the historic First Post from it when you load the pics.
That would be so awesome!
Imagine, "Well, here're some new pics... Here's the most recent news... By the way, did I mention I posted this from MY PANDORA?"

 

[Qwertyuiop]

...this thing is SO SMALL it is astonishing.

Is it around this size? =P

As you can see, my paper/cardboard model is just over 5 inches long.

 

[gruso]

Oh, that's one of the Pandora Curve prototypes. Good to see the components didn't go to waste.

 

[Prometheus]

I think your Pandora's lid has melted, Defo...

 

[fanoush]

Honestly ignore all windowz RAM issues, the Pandora will fly with 128Meg of RAM. This isn't X86 & windows, it is ARM and Linux.

Well, put some full or even stripped down linux distro on it, start Firefox and open few tabs/windows and you'll change your mind ;-) Or try to install gcc and compile c/c++ project directly on the device. Both use cases are not primary targets for this device but both are useful and sane ways to use the device and people will try to do exactly that.

Still I'm not complaining. I know that 128MB of mobile DDR is current maximum if you want NAND flash in same POP chip and 256MB alone is expensive and would need to embed eMMC chip to one of SD/MMC interfaces for root file system (better design IMO, who really needs that tiny and troublesome embedded NAND?). Maybe my second Pandora will be like that

 

[gaterooze]

Well, put some full or even stripped down linux distro on it, start Firefox and open few tabs/windows and you'll change your mind ;-)

Didn't MWeston say he saw exactly that happen on this chip/RAM and it flew? There are videos of Ubuntu on the Beagleboard, it seemed to handle things quite well.

 

[gruso]

Forget what Craig and Michael say, I'm pretty sure Fanoush has all the inside info. Not the slightest hint of presumptuousness either. 10/10.

 

[gibberish]

ive tried to dismiss all the hype and promises of dates for pre-order/pics etc but i have to say that my heart missed a beat when craigix said he was gona post pics of a real pandora today.

today my job title changes to "f5 crew member" and i will be doing this all day long lol.

 

[Adventus]

QUOTE
Well, put some full or even stripped down linux distro on it, start Firefox and open few tabs/windows and you'll change your mind ;-) Or try to install gcc and compile c/c++ project directly on the device. Both use cases are not primary targets for this device but both are useful and sane ways to use the device and people will try to do exactly that.
.... Neither of those need greater than 100mb of RAM. For GCC you can use ggc-min-expand and ggc-min-heapsize to restrict its memory usage.... generally at the cost of compiling speed. By default GCC sets these parameters to a percentage of the RAM available on your machine, 64mb is usually fine, even if your using the -0n flags.

 

[fanoush]

Neither of those need greater than 100mb of RAM.
What to say? I'm doing both on N810 tablet which has 128MB RAM too and the memory is clearly a limit. You need to turn off Flash in browser or open just very few browser windows to have usable system even with swap enabled. True that Maemo is a bit bloated but definitely far better than your random desktop distribution. The browser is Firefox but stripped down too (no XUL). Even with moderate use the browser RES (resident size) memory usage alone goes above 128MB.

I wonder what memory size Nokia decides to use for their next (omap3 based) tablet. OMAP3 can boot from MMC directly and the chip has three MMC interfaces so in theory one can have 2 slots and still use eMMC as root filesystem, ditch internal NAND and go for 2Gb(=256MB) RAM chip on POP package, see http://www.micron.com/products/dram/mobile...bileddrpartlist

For GCC you can use ggc-min-expand and ggc-min-heapsize to restrict its memory usage.... generally at the cost of compiling speed. By default GCC sets these parameters to a percentage of the RAM available on your machine, 64mb is usually fine, even if your using the -0n flags.

Will try ASAP, thanks. Default setting of CodeSourcery 2005q3-2 toolchain cannot compile vice-2.0 even with 192MB of additional swap (with -O2).

So to sum it up. 128MB is plenty for gaming device and its designers made best choice currently possible but still when using the device like mobile PC for advanced web surfing (similar to EEE) you may hit RAM limits quite fast. 128MB is not plenty for that. I wouldn't say that my N810 flies with 128MB of RAM. Still it is quite usable so I do plan to get Pandora

 

[Kings]

128MB is more than enough for Lynx and Fortune... I don't see what the problem is.

Even my toshiba 610ct runs fine with only 24MB.

 

[critical]

Honestly ignore all windowz RAM issues, the Pandora will fly with 128Meg of RAM. This isn't X86 & windows, it is ARM and Linux.

Well, put some full or even stripped down linux distro on it, start Firefox and open few tabs/windows and you'll change your mind ;-) Or try to install gcc and compile c/c++ project directly on the device. Both use cases are not primary targets for this device but both are useful and sane ways to use the device and people will try to do exactly that.

Still I'm not complaining. I know that 128MB of mobile DDR is current maximum if you want NAND flash in same POP chip and 256MB alone is expensive and would need to embed eMMC chip to one of SD/MMC interfaces for root file system (better design IMO, who really needs that tiny and troublesome embedded NAND?). Maybe my second Pandora will be like that

Hi Fanoush - good to see you here... you've been such an asset to the Nokia webtablet community.

Did you see Koen's post here:

http://www.angstrom-distribution.org/firef...%A5ngstr%C3%B8m

"The firefox 3.0.1 browser now works in angstrom, but it's much, much slower and memory hungry than epiphany-webkit)"

I don't see the need for the full-blown engine personally... minimo or a webkit-based browser would suit me fine.

 

[thomasmes]

To compare with others:

AFAIK (picked from the internet/wiki):

The PS1 has 2MB
The N64 has 4MB (expandable to 8MB)
The Dreamcast 16MB main, 8MB video, 2MB sound
The Wii has about 104 MB of Ram, 88Mb can be used for programs, the rest is for the OS/video (?)

 

[mraellis]

But by that standard the Pandora could emulate the Wii. Lol

And we all know that isn't going to happen.

 

[impreziv]

Neither of those need greater than 100mb of RAM.
I'm doing both on N810 tablet which has 128MB RAM too and the memory is clearly a limit. You need to turn off Flash in browser or open just very few browser windows to have usable system

why do you have more than one browser window open? maybe a Subnotebook would be a better device for you if you do heavy semi-mobile web browsing.

ive only had my hands on an N810 once. the OS looked (relatively) system intensive. i dont know if that is the case, but the one i played with was fresh out of the box, and it seemed to run very slow.

i have a 32gb Ipod Touch, which has a 412mhz ARM cpu, and 128mb of ram. i listen to music while browsing the internet via Wifi, with as many as 4-5 tabs open on the browser. it never runs slow while doing that.

 

[Pleng]

Neither of those need greater than
So to sum it up. 128MB is plenty for gaming device and its designers made best choice currently possible but still when using the device like mobile PC for advanced web surfing (similar to EEE) you may hit RAM limits quite fast. 128MB is not plenty for that. I wouldn't say that my N810 flies with 128MB of RAM. Still it is quite usable so I do plan to get Pandora

But the device has never been designed with that use in mind. A device of this size is clearly not going to be adequate for 'advanced web surfing'. Simple web browsing, and email yes, for sure. But considering the size of the screen it's not going to be practical to have hundereds of tabs and windows open at the same time (as I frequently do on my desktop)

Clearly there will be people who try and push the bounderies, to see what is achievable with the device, but they don't really have any ground to complain if it performs poorly when doing so.

Yes, maybe in 3 or 4 years we'll start talking about a successor to Pandora. It's almost certain that SoCs will have advanced in that time. Maybe then we'll be looking at 2Ghz, 512Mb systems. And then there'll be people finding uses for the device that, in all honestly, won't really work unless theres a Gig of ram in the system. And so the fun continues..!

------------------------------

(quote Messy)
The Wii has about 104 MB of Ram, 88Mb can be used for programs, the rest is for the OS/video (?)

But by that standard the Pandora could emulate the Wii. Lol

And we all know that isn't going to happen.

Emmmm hardly. We've only mentioned RAM and haven't even TOUCHED on CPU power. Nor the Overhead of actually emulating the system!

From the info supplied in that post is that the Pandora should have enough RAM to run anything the Wii can, presuming the CPU is fast enough, and the source code available.

And we all know that Wii games aren't generally open-source!

 

[impreziv]

The Wii has about 104 MB of Ram, 88Mb can be used for programs, the rest is for the OS/video (?)

But by that standard the Pandora could emulate the Wii. Lol

And we all know that isn't going to happen.

nobody said anything about emulating anything. The pandora having 24mb ram more than the Wii doesnt even bring it close the being able to emulate it. you would need multiple amounts more ram and CPU power to emulate Wii (im going to guess and say at least 4x more CPU power, and maybe 8-10x more ram).

 

[mraellis]

It was a joke...

Lighten up. Lmao.

And i did say it wasn't going to happen to. Haha

I love the Pandora's 128mb of ram.

 

[fanoush]

But the device has never been designed with that use in mind. A device of this size is clearly not going to be adequate for 'advanced web surfing'.

What triggered my post was this (IMO overly optimistic) quote:

Honestly ignore all windowz RAM issues, the Pandora will fly with 128Meg of RAM. This isn't X86 & windows, it is ARM and Linux.

Somehow it implies to me that 128MB is comparable to generic Windows machine and such magic is possible because of 'ARM' and 'Linux' bits alone. And the Beagleboard people give similar hints - "computer that unleashes laptop-like performance and expandability without the bulk, expense, or noise of typical desktop machines". So I really see some hints that authors think those devices _were_ designed with that use in mind.

Simple web browsing, and email yes, for sure. But considering the size of the screen it's not going to be practical to have hundereds of tabs and windows open at the same time (as I frequently do on my desktop)

Not hundreds but 5 to 10 is practical and quite handy for "Simple web browsing, and email". Get N810, you'll see what I mean

Clearly there will be people who try and push the bounderies, to see what is achievable with the device, but they don't really have any ground to complain if it performs poorly when doing so.

I was not complaining but merely putting back few bits of reality into IMO too optimistic statements. Sorry for that, next time I will resist that temptation and won't spoil the fun