275 Mhz Gp2x's At Gbax

[rememberthe8bit]

All this talk of 300mhz GP2Xs is making me jealous.

 

[Zeladin]

Isint it bad overclocking the GP2X, wouldnt it shorten its lifespan?

Hi don't usually post but figure I will since there seems to be some confusion about overclocking.

Overclocking will shorten the lifespan of your processor.

Overclocking a processor means increasing its working frequency and, consequently, its working temperature; sometimes you need to increase the power voltage of the processor, further increasing the temperature, in order to obtain a stable configuration. Temperature is very important, because on it depends the electro migration, a nightmare for processor owners. This phenomenon causes the connections within an electronic component, processor included, to break and it is directly linked to the working frequency of the component. Electro migration always occurs during the life of a processor, no difference if overclocked or not, because in either case it generates heat while working; overclocking makes this phenomenon to occur earlier due to the increase of temperature.

Being merely the source turned up on google. I believe Epicenter was suggesting that you would either get bored of the gp2x, or something else would break first sooner than the processor wearing out. This may be true. There are a number of other things to bear in mind, the heat will increase, and so will power consumption. So battery life will decrease, this is a square law I believe, which means even a small overclock will significantly increase power consumption - (this might explain all those people complaining about battery life, I haven't noticed it as a problem, and I only have four aa 2000mah cells).

Also it voids your warrenty, but I assume the ones that are preoverclocked at gp2x.co.uk are returnable in case of failure - which is a big plus. In trouble though if the lifetime is like two years (which isn't too bad I suppose). Away overclock at your own risk etc etc.

 

[Epicenter]

Can we change the processor, is it thinkable or just a really stupid question.
Like cutting the chip legs off then take the same arm process but faster. Like a big mod chip job!


btw: i'm actually serious!

Completely impossible without a clean-room and equipment that can alter microscopic components.. The MMSP2 is a combined SoC (system on a chip) that incorporates both ARM9 processors, the 2D hardware, memory controller, LCD controller, storage controllers, audio controller, USB host controller, and more, so the ARM920T can't be swapped directly. Magiceyes also doesn't offer higher-clocked SoCs than the 200 MHz parts-- even VRender-3D is still 200 MHz. Plus, the chip has no real legs to speak of, it's BGA or Ball Grid Array-- tiny balls of solder attach the chip on the BOTTOM so the legs are not even accessible, and do not pass through the board. The only feasible way to swap the chips would be with an air soldering tool or a soldering OVEN, and it'd be amazingly risky. Plus no chip but an MMSP2 will match the GP2X's pin arrangement on the PCB, so even if you wanted to install a VRender-3D you couldn't without soldering hundreds of tiny wires, and it may still be software-incompatible.

Am I sounding like an Epcot tour guide yet?

 

[PokeParadox]

Isint it bad overclocking the GP2X, wouldnt it shorten its lifespan?

Hi don't usually post but figure I will since there seems to be some confusion about overclocking.

Overclocking will shorten the lifespan of your processor.

Overclocking a processor means increasing its working frequency and, consequently, its working temperature; sometimes you need to increase the power voltage of the processor, further increasing the temperature, in order to obtain a stable configuration. Temperature is very important, because on it depends the electro migration, a nightmare for processor owners. This phenomenon causes the connections within an electronic component, processor included, to break and it is directly linked to the working frequency of the component. Electro migration always occurs during the life of a processor, no difference if overclocked or not, because in either case it generates heat while working; overclocking makes this phenomenon to occur earlier due to the increase of temperature.

Being merely the source turned up on google. I believe Epicenter was suggesting that you would either get bored of the gp2x, or something else would break first sooner than the processor wearing out. This may be true. There are a number of other things to bear in mind, the heat will increase, and so will power consumption. So battery life will decrease, this is a square law I believe, which means even a small overclock will significantly increase power consumption - (this might explain all those people complaining about battery life, I haven't noticed it as a problem, and I only have four aa 2000mah cells).

Also it voids your warrenty, but I assume the ones that are preoverclocked at gp2x.co.uk are returnable in case of failure - which is a big plus. In trouble though if the lifetime is like two years (which isn't too bad I suppose). Away overclock at your own risk etc etc.

In the context of PCs most of what you say is correct. In the case of the GP2X the CPU is a low power chip. It doesn't get damaged by heat from overclocking (the heat doesn't increase much and there isn't much to begin with) The only thing that does happen at higher clock rates is the chip and hence the system will crash.

If that happens just turn off and don't overclock that high...

 

[Epicenter]

lots and lots of stuff about overclocking

You won't encounter electromigration on a processor with a TDP so incredibly low. It becomes an issue in desktop processors that emit/use 75W-135W of heat/power. The ARM920T core, at 200 MHz, utilizes about 50mW, or 50 THOUSANDTHS of ONE watt. At 300 MHz, it's closer to 75 mW. You won't have heat problems from the MMSP2 even with heavy overclocking. If you could freeze the chip to way, WAY below 0 fahrenheit, you might see some overclocking stability improvements though.

As for warranty, overclocking shouldn't void it since you'll never damage your GP2X by doing it. AFAIK Craig and ED are still taking back broken machines that have been overclocked; Craig CALLS the processor 240 MHz when it's really 200 MHz-rated, because you can overclock to that level on nearly every unit. In this case, overclocking is required to meet your conditions of sale!

As for power consumption, overclocking the 920T should have negligable affects on battery life, if not for a fault in the MMSP2 or GP2X's implementation of it in software. When 920T clock rises, other components work at higher speeds as well-- it seems the PLLs are tied together in a bizarre fashion. So, the whole MMSP2 draws more power instead of just the ARM920T, causing a fairly large battery life hit. It remains to be seen if the PLLs could be reconfigured to separate the ARM920T onto its own clock generator-- If it can be done, I'm sure god_at_hell could figure it out. I'll propose the idea to him via PM if he doesn't read this.

 

[aapje89]

It's an open market place. If someone wants to pay 15 pound for peace of mind, then good for them

What happens to the GP2Xs that 'fail' the 275Mhz test? Do they go into the standard Value Pack 'pile', thus lowering the odds of getting a higher speed GP2X for the normal price?

Customer A orders one for £139. GP2Xs are tested, and non-275Mhz+ ones are 'rejected'.
Customer B orders one for the normal price, and gets one of these slower models. Whereas before he would have had a chance of getting a faster CPU.

yeah, thats just nasty <_<

 

[Zeladin]

The ARM920T core, at 200 MHz, utilizes about 50mW, or 50 THOUSANDTHS of ONE watt.

Good point. Now that I think about it again, the Gp2x's lcd probably is the biggest consumer of power rather than the Processor. If it were the case that the processer was a major power user, you would see a dramatic drop in battery life - I checked it up, its an exponential law. But seeing as that doesn't matter, because of certain greater issues...

I must say that I have read a number of posts about Overclocked Gp2x dying, in particular there was a whole issue with the psx developer's (Zodttd) gp2x dying. This was an extreme enough overclock I recall. If it were completely without negative consequences, why would the processors manufacturers not have quoted ~240mhz as the clockspeed in the first place. Surely they have tested their chip extensively? Or perhaps there are a lot of ARM920t's that can't make even that? Just a few random thoughts on the matter, but I guess this is well travelled ground.

Anyway more on topic, I think that 15quid extra for guarenteed 280mhz is probably better than lucky dip - then I don't play the lotto. I certainly don't think its daylight robbery, it not as if its not guarenteed, and if extremely overclockable Mk2's are less common that the mk1's then this is doubly good, as the lucky dip, isn't so lucky anymore.

Overclocking seems almost necessary to run many things well on the Gp2x - so I guess its pretty much a fact of life at this stage anyway. I'm still suspicious of this "no risk/ negative consequences at all" thing. It would be nice if they put the more expensive version of that processor (0.13 µm rated at 230-250) in the Gp2x ... but maybe they are occasionally anyway. I like this little console btw, must remember that though similar to PC in many respects, its not the same.

Anyway, now you all know why I don't post much, sorry for the distraction

 

[Shikaku]

I must say that I have read a number of posts about Overclocked Gp2x dying, in particular there was a whole issue with the psx developer's (Zodttd) gp2x dying. This was an extreme enough overclock I recall. If it were completely without negative consequences, why would the processors manufacturers not have quoted ~240mhz as the clockspeed in the first place. Surely they have tested their chip extensively? Or perhaps there are a lot of ARM920t's that can't make even that? Just a few random thoughts on the matter, but I guess this is well travelled ground.

His GP2X died because the power switch to his GP2X died completely. This means basically that he turned his GP2X on and off so often the power switch failed, even though he soldered it back to working condition before.

An ARM processor will not die to overclocking not out of spec, EVER.

You see LURKERS, this is the bad side effect of being a lurker: MISINFORMATION.

 

[vampire8bit]

So how is this test done? Is it that all units are tested at 275Mhz and the ones that run ok at this speed are the "275Mhz" units and the ones that don't are the "240Mhz" units, so this should mean the 240Mhz ones may still be able run ok at 266Mhz?

 

[kevcal]

So how is this test done? Is it that all units are tested at 275Mhz and the ones that run ok at this speed are the "275Mhz" units and the ones that don't are the "240Mhz" units, so this should mean the 240Mhz ones may still be able run ok at 266Mhz?

Yeah, sounds like it...

 

[rooster]

Is the OC limit on our GP2Xs purely down to heat like on a pc?

if so... will someone design some kind of internal dudey copper heatsink fitting that will radiate heat to the outside of the unit better and give us +10 Mhz ?

or is it some bizarre internal chip craziness that can't ever be controlled by the user?

does anyone know?

has anyone tried overclocking their GP2X in the Arctic Circle? I bet they all go up to 320 outdoors

 

[nik166]

Is the OC limit on our GP2Xs purely down to heat like on a pc?

it's not purely down to heat on a pc

 

[moz]

Is the OC limit on our GP2Xs purely down to heat like on a pc?

it's not purely down to heat on a pc

its down to strawbery jelly

 

[Zeladin]

its down to strawbery jelly

something like that.

There's a limit to how fast a transistor can switch states. Heat is usually the first problem on a Pc, in my experience. Apparently, it not a big deal on the gp2x. I imagine, haven't researched fully, put nails in coffin etc, that a processor starts tripping over itself as transitors don't switch fast enough which of course leads to errors and a crash. Point is heat's not your only obstacle. Transitors and silicon etc work better (faster) at lower temperatures, hence, I suppose, overclocking is doubly compounded by lessening effeciency of transitors (and other components I guess) and the increasing demands of raising the clockspeed. Merely conjecture of course, I'm only an apprentice to this stuff yet.

I'm sure Epicenter or Shikaku would be more authoritative. And now back to my lurking - just think how many more ill informed people must be out there... so it was a power switch, not an overclock. Still, is overclocking completely without risk?? Seems unlikely, even given the low heat output, its not all down to heat. That aside, anybody else read about a gp32 with the screen being burnt by an overclock, okay different console, and maybe something else was wrong with it. All I'm suggesting is if you do overclock and something goes wrong, there's no-one to complain about it to (- except if someone has led you to believe that there is absolutely no risk, in which case, they are at fault. I guess if someone says that, it must be true, because other wise one could be liable for a lot of gp2x's, if it wasn't completely safe), and somehow I don't think Gamepark holdings should be obliged to give out replacements.

Probably more than my two cents worth.

edit; somehow I don't think Gamepark holdings should be obliged to give out replacements.
and that's why I don't think Craig's deal is too extortionist.