The theoretical maximum storage on a Pyra just went up.


Askarus

Forum Addict!
Joined
Sep 28, 2011
Messages
4,752
Location
Germany
512 GB SD-Cards are available in Germany for 165€.
(Kingston UHS-I)

These Cards do exist for a while now and the Price drop is real (Alredy more than 50%).

I wonder when the 1TB cards will show up. Did expect them for quite a while now but there is no news about such cards.
The first 512GB SD-Cards are from 2014 (and the Pyra is approaching) so it's about time to get the 1TB cards.
 

levi

Still fresh, damnit!
Joined
Oct 6, 2008
Messages
15,852
Location
Somewhere off the coast of the EU
This is where I stumbled into it. They're listed as available to ship. Not cheap, but the latest stuff never is.

https://www.amazon.com/Samsung-Select-Micro-Memory-256GB/dp/B01G7L03OS

Ouch! That does seem very expensive, though I note Samsung also claim to make a Pro+ 256GB uSD card which I guess is meant to be a little cheaper than these Evo cards, which are slightly faster. I guess also they might have a little trouble with yields on a part that small and high density, leading to higher prices. The top end card is always a little more than two cards of half the size, but with 128GB uSD cards of the same type listed there as under $40, $200 is a little extreme for now (although now I check the 128GB cards are only UHS1 and 80MB/s - sequential read I assume - rather than UHS3 and 95MB/s)

Edit: Although for Pyra users, I understand that the Pyra only supports Class 10, and won't use the UHS interfaces, so that extra speed may not be worth paying for if you're planning to stick it in the internal port and leave it there.
 

Magic Sam

Forever Homebrew
Joined
Aug 10, 2007
Messages
2,518
Age
40
Location
Dogs in Space !
Hi all :)

Slightly off-topic: which file systems are you using on the Pandora / will be using on the Pyra ?

I'm currently using EXT3 on my 16GB SD card, and I'm contemplating a switch to EXT4. I read some file system related articles these past few days, and BTRFS looks like a nice option, but is not available on the Pandora AFAIK...

Cheers, Magic Sam
 

levi

Still fresh, damnit!
Joined
Oct 6, 2008
Messages
15,852
Location
Somewhere off the coast of the EU

lukey

Rare Species
Joined
Jun 17, 2015
Messages
503
Location
Germany
Slightly off-topic: which file systems are you using on the Pandora / will be using on the Pyra ?
Mostly Ext2 and Ext4 with journaling Disabled for one Card. If you use an Ext>2 (or the Modern FS's), you should Deactivate the Journal since it will degrade the Flash Much Quicker.
 

Grench

Forum Addict!
Joined
Oct 3, 2008
Messages
6,629

No, those would do nothing for us. Those proprietary not quite microSD cards prove that Samsung is now big enough to repeat Sony's old mistakes. They are the new memory stick. No way I would buy into a single company's proprietary flash card BS.

The same speeds AND backwards compatibility can be had using the microSDXC UHS-II spec.
 

levi

Still fresh, damnit!
Joined
Oct 6, 2008
Messages
15,852
Location
Somewhere off the coast of the EU
It's not exactly a repeat of Sony's MemoryStick debacle or even Betamax - JEDEC (as mentioned in that link) has quite wide ranging support. I've not noticed any top tier UHS-II micro cards around yet - although some second-tier companies are making UHS-II class 3 cards (I'm not sure what benefit that gives over UHS-I class 3 cards to be fair though)

I don't know if combi ports can be made - these cards look similarly sized to muSD (transflash), so that might be part of the intended design. If so, and these cards can be made in number, and perform much faster than the class 3 SD cards available at the moment, they might steal the march on the SDA's UHS-II spec.
 

Grench

Forum Addict!
Joined
Oct 3, 2008
Messages
6,629
It's not exactly a repeat of Sony's MemoryStick debacle or even Betamax - JEDEC (as mentioned in that link) has quite wide ranging support. I've not noticed any top tier UHS-II micro cards around yet - although some second-tier companies are making UHS-II class 3 cards (I'm not sure what benefit that gives over UHS-I class 3 cards to be fair though)

I don't know if combi ports can be made - these cards look similarly sized to muSD (transflash), so that might be part of the intended design. If so, and these cards can be made in number, and perform much faster than the class 3 SD cards available at the moment, they might steal the march on the SDA's UHS-II spec.

Samsung also recently announced a combination port with their new proprietary design and microSD UHS-I support. Of course the microSD side would continue to run at microSD speeds.

Actually there are several UHS-II cards in both SDXC and microSDXC on the market.
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=microsd+uhs-ii

They're fast, but they are not as high in capacity as the UHS-I. Also - beware. UHS-II is a new standard. Yes, it is backwards compatible in that UHS-II cards can be read (at lower speeds) in UHS-I readers and UHS-II readers can read UHS-I cards. However, to get that speed improvement the SD Association added an additional 2nd row of pins to the uSD and SD format.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secur...1000x_MicroSDHC_UHS-II_U3_Class_10_-_Back.jpg

Samsung's new UFS cards -look- a lot like microSD cards and UFS seems like a very similar acronym to UHS. However Samsung's UFS is NOT an SD Association standard. It is a proprietary Samsung-only memory card.

Sony got so large that they decided that they could ignore 'standards' and produce their own proprietary media: Memory Stick.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_Stick
That kind of thing had worked well for them in Betamax after all. Essentially, that was Sony's 'jump the shark' moment.

IMHO, Samsung's UFS memory is a modern equifalent.
 

Silent-Hunter

Hardcore Member
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
3,482
Samsung also recently announced a combination port with their new proprietary design and microSD UHS-I support. Of course the microSD side would continue to run at microSD speeds.

Actually there are several UHS-II cards in both SDXC and microSDXC on the market.
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=microsd+uhs-ii

They're fast, but they are not as high in capacity as the UHS-I. Also - beware. UHS-II is a new standard. Yes, it is backwards compatible in that UHS-II cards can be read (at lower speeds) in UHS-I readers and UHS-II readers can read UHS-I cards. However, to get that speed improvement the SD Association added an additional 2nd row of pins to the uSD and SD format.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secur...1000x_MicroSDHC_UHS-II_U3_Class_10_-_Back.jpg

Samsung's new UFS cards -look- a lot like microSD cards and UFS seems like a very similar acronym to UHS. However Samsung's UFS is NOT an SD Association standard. It is a proprietary Samsung-only memory card.

Sony got so large that they decided that they could ignore 'standards' and produce their own proprietary media: Memory Stick.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_Stick
That kind of thing had worked well for them in Betamax after all. Essentially, that was Sony's 'jump the shark' moment.

IMHO, Samsung's UFS memory is a modern equifalent.
Will the Pyra support UHS-II, or only UHS-I?
[doublepost=1468860896,1468860640][/doublepost]
No, those would do nothing for us. Those proprietary not quite microSD cards prove that Samsung is now big enough to repeat Sony's old mistakes. They are the new memory stick. No way I would buy into a single company's proprietary flash card BS.

The same speeds AND backwards compatibility can be had using the microSDXC UHS-II spec.
Reading that article, it appears as though Samsung opened it up. It's still proprietary, but the footnote says anyone can use it without royalty.
 

TheOldOne

Fallen Paladin
Joined
Jul 22, 2015
Messages
402
Location
California
Will the Pyra support UHS-II, or only UHS-I?
[doublepost=1468860896,1468860640][/doublepost]
Reading that article, it appears as though Samsung opened it up. It's still proprietary, but the footnote says anyone can use it without royalty.
So unlike SDXC that officially requires MS owned FS support (EXFAT) for readers and requires a fee to San Disk to make a card?
 

Silent-Hunter

Hardcore Member
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
3,482
So unlike SDXC that officially requires MS owned FS support (EXFAT) for readers and requires a fee to San Disk to make a card?
I'm confused. It sounded to me like you wouldn't have to pay Samsung anything to make a reader or device that uses these cards. It also appears as though they submitted it to JEDEC as a standard, so they won't have control over it if that's the case.
 

TheOldOne

Fallen Paladin
Joined
Jul 22, 2015
Messages
402
Location
California
The SD standard is owned by San Disk and they require you to pay them to be allowed to make a card. They will allow you to make a NON UHS reader free but to call it SDXC if it's not USB or fireware or other universal interface then as part of the standard it is required the OS support EXFAT witch requires a license from MS. At least that's my understanding and the information I'm working from is several years old.
 

Silent-Hunter

Hardcore Member
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
3,482
So maybe the Samsung standard will be better and more open.

Fortunately for us though, the Pyra OS does support EXFAT, right?
 

Askarus

Forum Addict!
Joined
Sep 28, 2011
Messages
4,752
Location
Germany
So maybe the Samsung standard will be better and more open.

Fortunately for us though, the Pyra OS does support EXFAT, right?

I have an exFat SD in my Pandora. And my Arch Linux also does support it.

Will the Pyra support UHS-II, or only UHS-I?

No UHS-II Pins on the Mainboard.

Also the OMAP5 is not fast enough to reach UHS-I speed either AFAIK.
I've read somewhere here that it's about twice as fast as Pandoras SD-speed.
 

asimov-solensan

Very Active Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
689
I've read somewhere here that it's about twice as fast as Pandoras SD-speed.

Is this true? Any link? Pretty disappointing if you ask me, SD speed on pandora was pretty lame, I expected something much better on pyra than just twice.
 

Grench

Forum Addict!
Joined
Oct 3, 2008
Messages
6,629
The SD standard is owned by San Disk and they require you to pay them to be allowed to make a card. They will allow you to make a NON UHS reader free but to call it SDXC if it's not USB or fireware or other universal interface then as part of the standard it is required the OS support EXFAT witch requires a license from MS. At least that's my understanding and the information I'm working from is several years old.

Sorry, but that is both misleading and very wrong. Although SanDisk WAS one of the original companies that pooled together to create the Secure Digital Association. However, it is a non-profit with 1000+ members. Although not 'Free', the SD standards are at least 'Open' though not 'open source'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SD_Association

ExFat drivers have been available on the Pandora for several years and I would be shocked if they don't get built into the OS for the Pyra. Yes, ExFat IS a Microsoft thing. There are now ExFat Linux drivers, but Microsoft was not much help in getting there. Yes, these cards can all be re-formatted to whatever your heart desires.

Anyway, there are several things going on with SD (and eMMC) control for the Pyra. To my understanding for the Pyra...
eMMC is limited to about 208 MB/s (Bus limit)
Internal microSD is limited to about 104 MB/s (Bus limit & Max UHS-I speed)
The two exposed SD slots work off of a different system and I've never fully understood what is controling them. However I'm under the assumption that they run at the same 104 MB/s theoretical maximum bus rate.

"
SDXC[edit]

Official SDXC logo
The Secure Digital eXtended Capacity (SDXC) format, announced in January 2009 and defined in version 3.01 of the SD specification, supports cards up to 2 TB (2048 GB), compared to a limit of 32 GB for SDHC cards in the SD 2.0 specification. SDXC adopts Microsoft's exFAT file system as a mandatory feature.

Version 3.0 also introduced the Ultra High Speed (UHS) bus for both SDHC and SDXC cards, with interface speeds from 50 MByte/s to 104 MByte/s for four-bit UHS-I bus.

Version 4.0, introduced in June 2011, allows speeds of 156 MByte/s to 312 MByte/s over the four-lane (two differential lanes) UHS-II bus, which requires an additional row of physical pins.

Version 5.0 was announced in February 2016 at CP+ 2106, and added "Video Speed Class" ratings to handle higher resolution video formats like 8K.[15][16] The new speed ratings go up to 90 MB/s.[17][18]
"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Digital


I'm looking forward to when we can benchmark different SD and uSD cards on actual Pyras to find out what works best. That was entertaining on the Pandora - until a few years in when we got to a time when all commercially available cards were already faster than the Pandora could go.

Hopefully someone will port over an HDD/SSD performance graphical benchmarking suite so we can have a standard measure to use other than entering dd commands.
 

Magic Sam

Forever Homebrew
Joined
Aug 10, 2007
Messages
2,518
Age
40
Location
Dogs in Space !
Hi all,

Regarding ExFAT, the specifications do look nice, but as @Grench said, this is a Microsoft thing (proprietary stuff, open source implementations exist though) and it's patent encumbered, so not likely to be included in vanilla Linux...

Cheers, Magic Sam
 

Plume

Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2015
Messages
121
Hi all,

Regarding ExFAT, the specifications do look nice, but as @Grench said, this is a Microsoft thing (proprietary stuff, open source implementations exist though) and it's patent encumbered, so not likely to be included in vanilla Linux...

Cheers, Magic Sam
Code:
pacman -Ss exfat
community/exfat-utils 1.2.4-1 [installed]
    Utilities for exFAT file system
Please check before you post anything. Especially, when it is so easy. I'm personally running Parabola GNU/Linux and have access to exFAT drivers, so the slightly modified Debian available on the Pyra should offer it too.
 

Grench

Forum Addict!
Joined
Oct 3, 2008
Messages
6,629
Is this true? Any link? Pretty disappointing if you ask me, SD speed on pandora was pretty lame, I expected something much better on pyra than just twice.

The Pandora was built back in the time when SDHC was the latest big thing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Digital#SDHC
It allowed for a theoretical maximum data rate of 25MB/s. In practice the Pandora got ~18MB/s. It was actually a big & cool thing that they were able to make the Pandora work with SDXC media at all. It wasn't originally designed to.

The Pyra is being built from an SoC that, in theory, supports the SDXC Version 3.0 specification. It calls for a maximum data rate of 104 MB/s. If the Pyra gets the same real/theoretical ratio as the Pandora (18/25 = 72%), then the Pyra's uSD and maybe SD slots could get around 75 MB/s. All theoretical for now of course.

From a user perspective, there is a big difference between 18 MB/s and 75 MB/s.
 
Top