The definition of "creativity" (Split from other topic)

[diligentcircle]

(NOTE: This thread was split from the news article about the Pandora Rebirth Competition after a quite lengthy discussion on definitions of words sprung up. --Prometheus)

Devs are like painters, some of them develop own individual technique, some of them copies technique from other devs. But theres always a part of creativity in there, always..

"Devs"?


Well, designers, spriters, and the like are the creative people, and sure, they're "devs". But I'd say programmers are "devs" too. Programming doesn't involve creativity. If you're being "creative" with your programming, chances are you're doing something wrong.

 

[Christoph.Krn]

Programming doesn't involve creativity. If you're being "creative" with your programming, chances are you're doing something wrong.

It appears that definitions of the term "creativity" differ widely across the people participating in this discussion. In its purest sense, creativity does not imply recklessness.


There is an unlimited number of ways to solve a given problem in a Turing complete programming language. Therefore, finding a good (read: "with elegance of above average") way requires creativity (where creativity == "seeing" things that others don't).


edit-19jan2012-2050GMT+1: For your reading pleasure, here is one of the most thought-through analyses involving creativity in the context of extraordinary accomplishments that I have seen so far: Genius and creativity by Paul Cooijmans.

 

[b1llygo4t]

Well, designers, spriters, and the like are the creative people, and sure, they're "devs". But I'd say programmers are "devs" too. Programming doesn't involve creativity. If you're being "creative" with your programming, chances are you're doing something wrong.

your working under the idea that there is only one definative way to do things. how do you think all the different programing languages out there came to be? creativity is what drives technology and allows us to create new and better things. i for one am glad im not typing this on an apple2e. what programming class are you taking?? the teacher should be fired

 

[gruso]

I work as an electrical draftsman (doing schematic diagrams, PLC I/O etc). It's a job defined by rigid standards and engineering practices; on the surface it's the antithesis of creative work. Yet I find there is plenty of scope for creativity within those boundaries. Sometimes bending or rethinking the rules results in the most readable prints, and I like to stamp my style on everything I work on. I can also devise creative approaches to dealing with menial, repetitive tasks, handling batches of files, etc. I imagine the same freedom can be found in coding. Without it, I couldn't stand doing what I do.

 

[diligentcircle]

This is the definition of "creative" I'm thinking of:

resulting from originality of thought, expression, etc.; imaginative: creative writing.

What matters most in programming is being able to find the best solution to a problem. That's a lot more like ingenuity than creativity. The IOCCC is something that results in stuff that's creative, but I'd never use any of the techniques used there if I was being serious.


EDIT:

I work as an electrical draftsman (doing schematic diagrams, PLC I/O etc). It's a job defined by rigid standards and engineering practices; on the surface it's the antithesis of creative work. Yet I find there is plenty of scope for creativity within those boundaries. Sometimes bending or rethinking the rules results in the most readable prints, and I like to stamp my style on everything I work on. I can also devise creative approaches to dealing with menial, repetitive tasks, handling batches of files, etc. I imagine the same freedom can be found in coding. Without it, I couldn't stand doing what I do.

Again, that sounds to me more like ingenuity than creativity. It doesn't need to be creativity just because you're thinking about something at a different angle.


I guess I'm really just arguing about the definition of "creative", but I just feel that programmers can't properly be compared very much to painters (as StreaK seemed to be doing, if only indirectly).

 

[Christoph.Krn]

onpon4 -- Are there painters with ingenuity?

 

[WizardStan]

According to various dictionaries (Merriam-Webster notably) creativity is synonymous with ingenuity.

 

[erico]

all those dictionaries must be wrong! :rolleyes:

 

[diligentcircle]

According to various dictionaries (Merriam-Webster notably) creativity is synonymous with ingenuity.

That's true, but just because it's listed as a synonym in a dictionary or thesaurus doesn't mean they're interchangeable. I actually made a joke about this in my recent Mario fangame. This is a paraphrasing of it:

Turtle: ...your malodorousness!


Bowser: ...what?


Turtle: Malodorous! I looked it up in a thesaurus! It means nasty!


Hammer bro: Um... you might want to check a dictionary. You just called Bowser stinky.

"malodorous" was listed as a synonym for "nasty" in one thesaurus I looked at. But clearly, in this case, "malodorous" was not a proper substitution for "nasty".


"Originality" is also listed on the Marriam-Webster dictionary as a synonym for "creativity", and "imagination" for "ingenuity". But I can't think of anyone who would argue that all of these are the same thing.

 

[Prometheus]

That's true, but just because it's listed as a synonym in a dictionary or thesaurus doesn't mean they're interchangeable.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that that's the very definition of a synonym.

 

[diligentcircle]

That's true, but just because it's listed as a synonym in a dictionary or thesaurus doesn't mean they're interchangeable.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that that's the very definition of a synonym.

Let me rephrase that.


Just because it's a synonym doesn't mean it's the exact same thing, or that it's interchangeable all the time. There are nuances that make them slightly different.

 

[WizardStan]

Indeed. Malodorous is synonymous with nasty in terms of smell. The fault there lies in the fact that "nasty" actually has multiple definitions depending on context.


Ingenious and creativity do not suffer the same fate. When someone comes up with a new solution to a problem, they are said to have gotten creative with the work, or that they have an ingenious solution.


I think the difference in definition that you are struggling for is that "creativity" usually applies to an entire work, whereas ingeniousness applies to specific aspects. A painting is creative, but the way a painter uses brush strokes is ingenious. A sorting algorithm can be ingenious, but a database built around that sorting algorithm (and other aspects) requires creativity.

 

[DaMummy]

so I take it you guys are coordinating on a dictionary pnd, or perhaps something that can measure creativity somehow?


seriously, this has got to be the most thread derailing I've seen in a while

 

[Prometheus]

Yeah... I should split this out, I guess.

 

[StreaK]

This topic will be set on fire pretty soon, almost like topics about "religion". Too much different opinions. Too polarized..


EDIT:


I understand onpon4 , you're programmer, right?


EDIT v2:


For everyone interesed:


http://fabien.potencier.org/article/32/developers-should-be-artists

 

[diligentcircle]

This topic will be set on fire pretty soon, almost like topics about "religion". Too much different opinions. Too polarized..

I doubt it. I don't have anything else to say, personally.

 

[gunrock]

onpon4 was obviously baiting us with his "programmers aren't creatives" stance. Naughty-boy!


PCSX rearmed, for instance, may be largely, a port, but the creativity that Notaz and Exophase I imagine, have applied, in getting to where it is today, some amazing levels of creativity in their work.

 

[diligentcircle]

onpon4 was obviously baiting us with his "programmers aren't creatives" stance. Naughty-boy!

What could I possibly be trying to do? I didn't even mention that my recent Mario fangame that I mentioned is called "Bowser's Last Stand", and that a link to it can be found in my signature.


In all seriousness, though, no "baiting", whatever that is. I'm just thoughally convinced that I was wrong at this point.

 

[MrChops]

I work as an electrical draftsman (doing schematic diagrams, PLC I/O etc). It's a job defined by rigid standards and engineering practices; on the surface it's the antithesis of creative work. Yet I find there is plenty of scope for creativity within those boundaries. Sometimes bending or rethinking the rules results in the most readable prints, and I like to stamp my style on everything I work on. I can also devise creative approaches to dealing with menial, repetitive tasks, handling batches of files, etc. I imagine the same freedom can be found in coding. Without it, I couldn't stand doing what I do.

this made me laugh as I also detail but for the construction industry. There is indeed room for creativity but I find that I rarely have time to do it. Contractors are always pushing me to crap out drawings, hence I can't stand what I do anyways.

 

[bismuthdrummer]

I would never call a faulty algorithm ingenious, but I might call it creative.