Sonic games rant

[diligentcircle]

Let's be blunt first: I f****** HATE the Sonic games for the Genesis/Mega Drive!


No, no, don't click away, please! Just hear me out!


So the first Sonic game ever was Sonic the Hedgehog for the Genesis. Extremely basic game; it could be played on an Atari 2600 controller. All 3 buttons just jump. No run, no shoot, no action, just jump. So it's as simple as it gets. But already, the game has problems with, of all things, the control. Ironically, though people remember it for being "fast", it takes like 3 seconds to get up to full speed from a standing position, and to make matters worse, little ledges that stop you dead in your tracks are common enough for you to need to speed up again relatively frequently. More annoyingly, though, you can jump while rolling, but if you do this, you arbitrarily can't change your direction in midair!


And to top it off, Sonic the Hedgehog for the Genesis's level design is at best mediocre. Some people seem to like to think "it's an action game", but honestly, this isn't an action game or a reflex game! That would be a game like Ninja Gaiden or Super Mario Bros! Sonic the Hedgehog is SLOW! The second zone is a perfect testament to this: much of the level is spent waiting on a slowly moving platform. Nothing is great about the level design at all. Not creative or fun or anything. It's just BORING!


So a bit later, Sonic the Hedgehog was backported to the Master System. And... it was better than the Genesis version. I might say, a really excellent game! Every single one of the above problems is solved; acceleration is faster (only around a half second to get to max speed), jumping while rolling is just a normal jump rather than a special Simon Belmont jump, and the level design is actually GOOD and interesting! I enjoyed every single one of them, even the water levels! Sure, you can't re-collect your rings any more, but even with that setback, it's still better than the Genesis version!


Then came Sonic 2 for the Master System. So this version adds back in ring re-collection. Good! Only problem is it also re-adds every problem from Sonic 1! So basically, Sonic 2 for the Master System is a less-good-looking version of Sonic 1 for the Genesis. Stupid.


And then there's Sonic 2 for the Genesis. Of course, it has all the same problems as Sonic 1 for the Genesis.


OK, it did make some improvements. The level design is marginally more interesting, though it seems it's been reduced to "hold the direction until you have to stop for something, and look at Sonic go at excessively high speeds sometimes!!" Not to mention all the cheap shots thrown in the levels. The spin dash helps a bit with the speed problem as well. No fix for the Simon Belmont roll jump, though.


Also, the control for the spin dash is annoying. I don't get why they didn't just get rid of one of the jump buttons and assign it to one of those. So rather than needing to be stopped, press down, and then press jump, you could just press the C button. Is that too much to ask?


OK, so next up came Sonic CD. And... just like Sonic 1 for the Master System, this fixes every problem. It's still just as slow to accelerate, but the addition of the Peel Out helps quite a lot (spin dash just didn't do it as much since you started slowing down after doing it; with peel out, you keep going). The Simon Belmont roll jump is gone, and the level design, while not perfect, is good. I'd still like the spin dash on the C button, but it's a smaller problem here than in the other games.


And what happened next with Sonic 3? Of course. Every single improvement in Sonic CD is GONE. Seriously, this would be like if Super Mario World reverted to not using a world map, or if Super Mario Bros 3 reverted to not being able to backscroll! What the heck is wrong with these developers?! When you get something right, F****** KEEP DOING IT THAT WAY!!!


And Sonic 3 has one of the worst segments I've ever seen before a boss, where you only have to hold the right direction on the d-pad for something like 30 seconds. Yeah, amazing design choice! Make the player hold a button for what seems like an eternity!


So yeah, I hate those games. Hate 'em, hate 'em, HATE 'em.


But I absolutely love Sonic 1 for the Master System and Sonic CD. I also love Shadow the Hedgehog, but that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

 

[gruso]

I love a good rant and that, sir, rates. I also love a good discussion that covers the oft overlooked issues in games that history would have us believe are flawless pillars of the golden age. If I had the time & inclination to rant, I could let loose on legendary titles like Donkey Kong Country and Phoenix Wright. But I won't here.


I was never a Sonic guy either. When it's fast it's too fast, and when it's slow it's stopped. But I can't use this as a basis for criticism, because I acknowledge that the secret to speed in Sonic is not leaning on the go button the whole time. Just like any race car driver will tell you, the secret to lap times is not mashing the accelerator, but knowing when not to. As this speed run demonstrates, knowing when to get on the brakes can make for the fastest path through a level - and the levels lend themselves to controlled speed quite nicely:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qb6ORAW3-MQ


I suck at it though, and it has always prevented me from enjoying the games fully.


(Just a quick note, check an error in paragraph 5 where you mention a backport to the Genesis. I knew what you meant though.)

 

[DaMummy]

you lost me at "I f****** HATE the Sonic games for the Gen"

 

[Halcyon]

I guess i should say im sorry you didn't like those games. I found the graphics, music and basic principles of the game to be in perfect harmony at the time and now.


I really enjoyed the level design in so much that there always appeared to be more then one path (or "level" as in height) to get from left to right. I enjoyed getting lost and then somehow getting streamlined back on track.


I happen to disagree with your analysis of the Sonic games on the Genesis, Im not sure I understand what you expect?


You say the game is slow because Sonic needs to accelerate or that the level designers put lifts or platforms in? I don't see how he wouldn't need to accelerate and if there were not platforms and lifts you would be playing Uniracers.


However what is most surprising to me of all is that you like Sonic 1 on the Mega Drive, which as near as I know is the same as the Game Gear. I enjoyed the Sonic 1 on Game gear, I really like the jungle levels in particular something about running on the logs was really fun, but I fail to see the stark differences in Mega Drive and Genesis versions of the game that could make someone love one and despise the other?


I hope i have not come across as rude, enjoy or dislike any games you want but I just don't see what you are driving at here? I suppose Im having a hard time reconciling the strength of your language in describing your disdain for the games and the relative pettiness of your examples.

 

[ZXDunny]

It's a shame you spent so long writing all that text when people can see you're just wrong and not worth reading by the time they get to the end of the first sentence. I suppose it just goes to show how gaming (and people) have changed - back then it was part of the game to put in a little effort, you're a shining example of today's gamer who feels that if effort is needed, he's being cheated.


D.

 

[fusion_power]

I've grown up with Sonic, I love Sonic, he still is my buddy. You make me sad.


The Megadrive Sonic Games were one of the best games for this System. Sonic 1 was it for themaster System. later Sonic games, especialy for Nintendo Consoles are not nearly that good I admit.

 

[diligentcircle]

However what is most surprising to me of all is that you like Sonic 1 on the Mega Drive, which as near as I know is the same as the Game Gear. I enjoyed the Sonic 1 on Game gear, I really like the jungle levels in particular something about running on the logs was really fun, but I fail to see the stark differences in Mega Drive and Genesis versions of the game that could make someone love one and despise the other?

Master System, not Mega Drive. Mega Drive is exactly the same as the Genesis.


OK, I'll reiterate:


In the Genesis version, it takes forever to speed up (and you have that stupid rule of "faster acceleration when you're in the air"). In the Master System version, it doesn't take nearly as long.


In the Genesis version, you're given a Simon Belmont-like jump if you're rolling (i.e. you can't change direction mid-air), which is ANNOYING if you happen to run into a ledge at the time. In the Master System version, it's just a normal jump, as it should be.


The level design in the Genesis version is gimmicky, nonsensical, or boring much of the time. The Master System version has interesting level design the entire time.

I suppose it just goes to show how gaming (and people) have changed - back then it was part of the game to put in a little effort, you're a shining example of today's gamer who feels that if effort is needed, he's being cheated.

That's a pretentious judgement to make. I happen to love Ninja Gaiden for the NES, SMB2 for the FDS (a.k.a. "The Lost Levels"), and Milon's Secret Castle, among others. A fangame I'm developing right now, Bowser's Last Stand, is also being made with quite difficult level design.


But honestly, modern games aren't less hard than older games. They're just more fair (usually). I know of no gamer (well, except maybe a 2-year-old) that wants the game to do everything for him. A lot, though, would like the challenges to be fair.


The Sonic games I'm talking about do not provide a fair challenge. The main challenge is in the control. And that is bad, bad, BAD design. Everything else is just holding a direction... waiting... jump over a ledge... oops, I ran into an enemy I had no time to react to... get the rings... more holding a direction... until you get to the end.

I was never a Sonic guy either. When it's fast it's too fast, and when it's slow it's stopped. But I can't use this as a basis for criticism, because I acknowledge that the secret to speed in Sonic is not leaning on the go button the whole time. Just like any race car driver will tell you, the secret to lap times is not mashing the accelerator, but knowing when not to. As this speed run demonstrates, knowing when to get on the brakes can make for the fastest path through a level - and the levels lend themselves to controlled speed quite nicely:

Being speedrunnable does not make a game good.

 

[GiraffeeDreams]

We're on different spectrums dude, I grew up with the speedy blue one, Sonic CD and Sonic 3 were developed by different teams which is why the peelout and some of the graphical enhancements didn't make it across, the games are fast but you have to learn the levels to be fast, otherwise mistime a jump and end up in a wall, but it didn't reserve itself to going from left to right as quickly as possible as it was at heart a platform game, although I do agree with the marble zone being crippling slow.


We all have our gripes, but it was either Sonic or Mario for me and Marios worlds were just squares, literally, no real slopes and momentum wasn't that important, Sonic actually had physics, jump and land on a downward slop and you'd get faster, going uphill drained your speed, and it was pretty, ok the scrap brain zone was bland but the green hill and labyrinth zones i thought looked spectacular compared to what other games were doing, fantastic colour and looks.


Sorry to hear you hate the games dude, as the MD/Gen era was definitely my favorite and I'd say most people agree (compared to later games), we all have our differences and it's good to see people speak up, just out of interest, what games did you grow up with?

 

[diligentcircle]

We all have our gripes, but it was either Sonic or Mario for me and Marios worlds were just squares, literally, no real slopes and momentum wasn't that important,

No slopes?! Ever played Super Mario Bros 3?


Slopes do not necessarily make a game good and lack of slopes does not necessarily make a game bad.

Sonic actually had physics, jump and land on a downward slop and you'd get faster, going uphill drained your speed,

And so did Super Mario Bros 3... and every subsequent Mario game.

and it was pretty, ok the scrap brain zone was bland but the green hill and labyrinth zones i thought looked spectacular compared to what other games were doing, fantastic colour and looks.

Looks aren't everything, but if you're going to reduce it to that, Super Mario World and Yoshi's Island have far better visuals than any of the early Sonic games, AND the visuals never get in the way.

just out of interest, what games did you grow up with?

The first game I ever played was Lode Runner: The Legend Returns. That was when I was 3. Though before that, I played a "game" (interactive toy) called "ready for letters".


A bit later (around the age of 4-6) I occasionally played Super Mario All-Stars and F-Zero when I went to my grandparents' house.


The time when I really got into games was when I got a Gamecube and Super Mario Sunshine. I later ended up getting Shadow the Hedgehog (first official Sonic-related game I ever played, love it) and Donkey Kong Jungle Beat and playing Mario Party 6 and Mario Party 7 (hated Mario Party 7 for the most part, and Mario Party 8 is even worse). Around the time I got the Gamecube, I also got a GBA SP along with Mario&Luigi RPG ("Superstar Saga"). I later ended up getting Classic NES SMB and Super Mario Advance 4.


And then I got a Nintendo DS and Mario&Luigi RPG 2 ("Partners in Time"). Later on I ended up playing or getting Sonic Rush (first official 2D Sonic game I ever played, don't like it), New Super Mario Bros, Advance Wars: Days of Ruin, Spectrobes, Spectrobes: Beyond the Portals, Megaman ZX Advent (first Megaman game I ever played, loved it), and Worms 2: Open Warfare, and a couple others.


Then, very recently, I got interested in older games. And here I am.


For the record, the first Sonic game I ever played was a fangame called "Neo Sonic Universe".

 

[GiraffeeDreams]

I didn't say slopes made a game good or bad, I was just saying that at the time Sonic 1 was out, Mario had none of the physics or looks (I do agree that SMW and Yoshis Story had superior looks but those are much newer games in comparison - and I know looks aren't everything, in fact I tend to criticize those who place importance on graphics but for Sonic 1, I feel that it looked more vibrant and lush than any other title I'd played even in subsequent years.


I always felt that Sonic 1 was a bit ahead of everything else when it came out, but the formula didn't change except for the spin dash, by time Sonic & knuckles had come out it wasn't much different where mario had gone leaps and bounds, besides all of that though, I suppose it comes down to personal choice, I'm not going to challenge you and say they aren't naff, I just happened to love those games (and now you're destroying childhood dreams damn you!), in all fairness I never thought they were perfect, but I didn't think anyone really despised the games as much as you do and it's nice to see a fresh perspective.

 

[diligentcircle]

I didn't say slopes made a game good or bad, I was just saying that at the time Sonic 1 was out, Mario had none of the physics or looks

Super Mario Bros 3 came out in 1988. It had slopes and made good use of them, and lots of other stuff. Sonic the Hedgehog came out in 1991, 3 years later. So I'm having a bit of trouble understanding how Mario games had "none of the physics" of Sonic the Hedgehog. The only thing I can think of that the Mario games didn't have is special segments that serve no purpose except to look cool. Some of which are completely non-interactive. Not a problem if it's not too long (those pipe-like transitions in Zone 2 of Sonic 2 are an example of "too long"), but not all that much of an improvement either.

 

[GiraffeeDreams]

I never played through SMB3 but I played the World games later on, even then though it wasn't until I played 64 that anything under 45 degrees made much difference to your jumping direction or speed of travel, not that I noticed at least.


And the pipes in the chemical plant were just part of the level theme really, the only sort of set piece I didn't think suited the level was the oil oceans orb cannons and those do go on for too long, just gave things a bit of variety between levels which i never found in Mario.

 

[diligentcircle]

I never played through SMB3 but I played the World games later on, even then though it wasn't until I played 64 that anything under 45 degrees made much difference to your jumping direction or speed of travel, not that I noticed at least.

So, you're referring to the way jumping on a slope causes you to ricochet off it horizontally? I hate that. What's great about Mario's physics in this regard is you can just jump to go faster, while in Sonic 1 you need to either just go up slowly or backtrack significantly so you can get a boost of speed. It's not as bad with the later games thanks to the spin dash. Another good thing about always jumping straight up it's a lot easier to predict what jumping is going to do.


Actually, this is another thing I like better about the Master System version: you always jump straight up.

And the pipes in the chemical plant were just part of the level theme really, the only sort of set piece I didn't think suited the level was the oil oceans orb cannons and those do go on for too long, just gave things a bit of variety between levels which i never found in Mario.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't think they're out of place, I just wish they went faster. Each one of them takes like 3-4 seconds.

just gave things a bit of variety between levels which i never found in Mario.

Um... OK. Personally, I prefer the variety to be in the gameplay. I suppose it would look cooler if Mario games added random gimmicks that do nothing to gameplay, but I prefer that they focus on the actual gameplay.

 

[GiraffeeDreams]

I've never felt that ramps and slopes etc made jumping unpredictable but that may just be how much I have played it over the years, I prefer the momentum based jumping over the straight up but that's just personal preference.


This has basically become Mario vs Sonic, it's all about what you prefer,it is a shame you haven't found any enjoyment in Sonic but hey that's life.


Thanks for sharing dude I've enjoyed the rant if you generally enjoy platform games try Prinny: Can I really be the hero on the PSP, something different from Mario and sonic. Take care.

 

[Nintendo]

My all-time favourite Sonic game was SA for Dreamcast.

 

[moz]

My favourite was Sonic Adventure battle for the GC. I really cant stand the newer ones, apart from generations.

 

[Nintendo]

SA DX: Director's Cut on Nintendo GameCube is as awesome as the Dreamcast original too.

 

[F_Slim]

I never had a console, and my favourite games are usually racing games or "the" classic FPS. So I did not really grow up with Sonic, though of course I saw it at a freinds place for example. I never really liked Jump'n'Runs either, although there are some exceptions.


I do have some of the same problems with Sonic as onpon4 has, mainly the game never seemed to be playable in the fluid way it seems to be played by people who spend hours and hours learning to play it well. However I can not really blame Sonic for it, I guess it's just that I'm not very good at it.


On the other hand, I always saw games as a form of entertainment. If I play, I want to be entertained. Sure, a certain amount of effort is always needed, but when a game is too frustrating I just don't find it entertaining anymore, so I don't see any point in putting a lot of effort into it to maybe reach the point where I'm good enough to maybe finally find it entertaining (or not).


You can now try to insult me and call me a "modern gamer", but I'm absolutely not! I'm just not a hardcore-gamer, spending my whole life improving my gaming skills. Besides, there are a lot of games out there which are challenging without being frustrating. Games that really make you want to become better, because it's even fun losing/not reaching that platform/whatever.


Sonic is more a game that stops the fluent gameplay whenever possible, just to show you that you're not good enough yet. After enough frustration and humiliation this just makes me want to throw the controller away though, it doesn't make me want to play again to become better.

 

[Halcyon]

SA DX: Director's Cut on Nintendo GameCube is as awesome as the Dreamcast original too.

What were the differences in the games? I never had a game cube but really enjoyed SA for my dreamcast.

 

[GiraffeeDreams]

It had a few improved textures, added bonus missions, and the chao garden instead of sending them to the vmu, you could transfer them into the garden on Sonic Advance. They need to bring the chao garden back


I love SA, it was a huge leap forward from the sonic world on sonic jam.