Proper Bounty Section on new Website?

[Wrath Of Khan]

I have been thinking about the need to have a proper bounty section on the new website.


Zuk posted a similar idea in the dev fund thread.Perhaps Craig and Ed already have something planned along these lines.A proper bounty section could list the most wanted programs/emus etc.a voting system could be used to decide such things perhaps.Imo if money was actually paid and the exact amount displayed in the bounty section then a potential developer could start to work on a specific bounty.The amiga community use a site like thishttp://www.power2people.org/projects/overview/ If a particular bounty were to reach a few thousand pounds or so then it might make it a bit more worth while for a developer to work on such a project.What do ye think? Any suggestions or ideas to add to the creation of a Proper bounty section?Etc

 

[Gyges]

Agreed. More exposure and standardization for bounties can only be for the good.

 

[ekianjo]

Again, I think we have already discussed this subject many times. Developpers do not spend hours on a project just because they are going to be 100 dollars out of it, or even 500. If you compare the hourly rate it becomes a better deal to work at McDonalds !


I'd rather have a clear "port requests" page than a focus on bounties.


People who propose bounties tend to miss the difficulties of the technical work involved - it's not just about money, it's about feasibility.


In other words, I don't think most developpers are interested in the little amount of money they could make with bounties. If that was the case, why don't we see more paying apps on Pandora ?


Obviously, profit is NOT the main motivator.

 

[erico]

I agree with you Ekianjo.


While I see that a "simple" game development can easily get to 50k$, what about ports? that sure coghs less as it is an adaptation of what already is? And emulation? written from scratch, it sure would cost a lot more?


Really hard subject this is.


Depending on the person and its current situation, a bounty may sound like an offense, but, on the other hand, if someone loves what he is doing or, it is a matter of learning, maybe a bount can add some beer money to the process?


It is an extremely tough subject.

 

[ekianjo]

Depending on the person and its current situation, a bounty may sound like an offense, but, on the other hand, if someone loves what he is doing or, it is a matter of learning, maybe a bount can add some beer money to the process?


It is an extremely tough subject.

People who ask for bounties do not really understand human psychology and have probably not read the state of researches on the subject.


Using bounties as carrots for donkeys has shown in several controlled studies not to be an effective way to motivate people, no matter how high the reward. However, providing purpose (not money related), and providing an UNEXPECTED reward is something that is proven to work.


In other words, once a developer has achieved something, rewarding them is probably a good idea to show appreciation.


When asking for a request, requesters should clarify why it's important to work on it. Why it will benefit many people. That's more important than saying "i'll pay you 50 dollars for that".


In many cases, as Erico mentioned below, you end up providing "too little money" and it is likely to be an offense to the developper, because that's how cheap his work will be valued and benchmarked vs other money-earning activities.


When you ask someone for a service, you either should not pay them and them to do it out of generosity (to you or the community) or pay them very well. When you end up in the middle, with just a little pocket money for someone who poured hours in the project, it does not make anyone feel good about it at all.


And I don't know where the bounty culture is coming from, but honestly, this is not something I usually see in Open Source communities. I was very surprised when I joined the forums to see this kind of behavior.


That's my 2 cents, but feel free to do what you want in the end.

 

[commander-beef]

Just my 1PLN Bounties for example works in Haiku-OS community, but that community is really different from what You can see here.. [i dont want to go deeper in this matter.. ]


A little example: Gallium Bounty [at the moment 125% done]: About 2500$ already added to bounty. And i mean added, these money are on one paypal address ready to pass to developer in small weekly chunks [but firstly there must be progress with porting]..

 

[Dimacus]

In Sweden we have something called 'arbetsplacerad utbildning' or just 'praktik' which is basically working for free, just to get experience.


However if you do this at a nice company they often pay for your food and for your traveling expenses ("You shouldn't need to pay to work for us").


That is how I have always thought of these kinds of bounties, you don't get any monetary reward for the actual work, but perhaps you get a couple of free meals.


While I was writing this, ekianjo posted his post and upon reflection, I'd like to add that the above was very often unexpected, and very welcome.


I must however add that even tough I'm not interested in a monetary reward, I have clicked port requests with a bounty more often than 'normal' port requests.


I think it's because I'm curious about what someone is willing to pay for, but I'm not sure.


Another thing I have noticed (NOTICE, I haven't read all threads for port requests (with or without bounties), so this might be completely wrong)


is that threads offering a bounty often have more relevant information for the potential porter.

 

[kasp]

I would have to disagree with you there.


Money is a huge motivating factor for alot of things. After all I wouldn't goto work if they didn't pay me even though I do actually like my job. Lets just use a dreamcast emulator for example, while money is not reason they started work on it if there was a significant bounty on it it would probably motivate them to do it quicker. If they hit a brick wall they might try harder to go around it. Now the dreamcast emulator I wouldn't be surprised if that reached 5000 dollar bounty. Now given the work they have done on it I would say whoever does it would be well deserved it as well.


Might not be an ideal system but it's alot easier to get the community to pony up for something they want then trying to collect donations retrospectively. I donate to open source projects all the time and you would be amazed how little they actually make out of it. A bounty at least gives them a guarantee that at the end of the day they will get some cash. I would prefer they got some money and then perhaps getting donations later if people are inclined rather than relying on donations after it's done.


While as you say it does not motivate them to develop the software we both know which system has the highest chance of a payday for the developer. Even if they feel slighted by the amount of the reward their pockets will be that little bit extra full because of it. it also lets the developers know how much people value the product. For instance I would pony up 100 dollars for a dreamcast emulator. Thats more than a AAA title game, hell I could even buy two. Some people offered to buy a 1 Ghz pandora for it thats 700 dollars. The community would be extremely thankful for it and the developer would know how much interest there is before they make it.

 

[commander-beef]

There are 3 main factors that drives people to do and release things:


- Money


- Fame [or better said: "recognition here and there"]


- Community appreciation*


You choose one.. if you're doing things for release to the public [and not for yourself only].. and if there's not enough of this what you wanted to accompilsh, its easy math, you dont release another prod..


* - appreciation, in different ways, as such: app rating, posting comments, helping in testing/debugging.. you name it.

 

[ekianjo]

- Money


- Fame [or better said: "recognition here and there"]


- Community appreciation*

I agree very much with Streak here. The second and third one are at least as important if not more than Money.


I think it's also part of one's own moral code. If you are on Pandora, you are using a Linux environment. Something you did not pay for, even though it took several man-years of development to get to this stage. It's an operating system based on collaboration and not monetary rewards: you release code because it meets your needs and also help others. And nobody charges you for it.


If all the free software community started doing things only for bounties, a great deal of the software we have now would have never happened.


Actually I'd like to see concrete example where bounties are the ONLY reason why developpers take on a project.

 

[ekianjo]

For instance I would pony up 100 dollars for a dreamcast emulator. Thats more than a AAA title game, hell I could even buy two. Some people offered to buy a 1 Ghz pandora for it thats 700 dollars.

I'm sorry to say that bluntly but that's nothing. Do you know how much professional developpers are making normally when they develop a website, a piece of application, fix bugs on paid software, make custom solutions for clients, etc ?


If you give money, you have to benchmark vs how much they would be paid for the same amount of time working on a contract for someone else.


Time is limited for everyone. If money is the main motivator for your developer to me, believe me, he would not care less about the, let's say, 1000 $ he could make on a Dreamcast emulator (which would obviously take weeks, months of work!) versus any other paying activity he could take on.


As I say, I prefer rewarding developers after the work is done (in one way or another) rather than "cheapening" their work with not-good-enough bounties in the first place.


This being said, if you can raise 20 grands for a bounty, that's a totally different story. But most bounties I have seen so far are way to limited to be motivating in themselves. Money only works as motivator above a certain threshold.

 

[gruso]

- Money


- Fame [or better said: "recognition here and there"]


- Community appreciation*

I agree very much with Streak here.

I don't. I'm no dev, but I've released a few things. None of the above were a factor in the work I did. Part of my motivation was necessity (ie. something I wanted did not yet exist on the Pandora) and part of it was the personal satisfaction of expanding my knowledge in order to create something. I've been offered donations, but declined. Fame - not really the realm I'm operating in. Appreciation as commander-beef describes it is nice, and helps keep you interested in maintaining a release. But that's just icing on the cake to me; it comes after the release, it's not the motivation for starting a project.

I don't dare speak for anyone, but I suspect this deeper personal motivation is behind a lot of the software we have.


Horses for courses, of course.

 

[commander-beef]

..None of the above were a factor in the work I did. Part of my motivation was necessity (ie. something I wanted did not yet exist on the Pandora) and part of it was the personal satisfaction of expanding my knowledge in order to create something...

Personal satifsaction of expanding knowledge [or wanting something that did not exist] doesnt explain why did you released the software to public.. [its ok if you do this for your drawer..] there are the reasons to release for public, and it isnt personal satisfaction IMO, because it has been already fulfilled when you finished the product that you're worked on [and you dont need to release it anywhere to increase you personal satisfaction of expanding knowledge ].

 

[gruso]

Ok, so we're making the distinction between making something and releasing something.


There is no argument that you hope for some appreciation and feedback when you release something. It's a real buzz actually, to see the download counter on the repo, a few ratings, some nice comments, maybe get some help to improve things.


You're saying that if these factors are not the motivation for making something, they're still the motivation for releasing it. Probably true in most cases. But without these things I would still share anything I've done. I share for the sake of sharing, and for the greater good (assuming what I'm sharing is any good). To create something and not share it in a little scene like this would be selfish and a little bit weird.


Just my take on it.


[edit] Apologies for the sidetrack folks. On the topic of Pandora bounties, I'm all for people being free to offer them and accept them. They work or they don't, and no harm is done either way.

 

[commander-beef]

..I share for the sake of sharing, and for the greater good (assuming what I'm sharing is any good)..

Bear in mind that sharing something without expectations for feedback/help-in-project from people might be weird. Since you should expect some feedback [a bad/good reaction] for your release. If you dont expect feedback, i dont think you doing right thing to release something to the public in first place..


edit:


Good example for my posts #13 is unreleased NullDC emulator for OP..


edit:


Just last few words: It is extremely important for users to post feedback/ providing help on every release for OP. IMHO [i might be the only one that think this way, but..] Its the very good reason for release another update and/or new stuff to public. Feedback [good/bad (constructive)] in first place..


Bounty is a good thing, it might help developer / porter to decide what app might be reasonable to port and in what apps he should invest his FREE time [and to know what app/game/emu will be really used by the users..]

 

[kasp]

For instance I would pony up 100 dollars for a dreamcast emulator. Thats more than a AAA title game, hell I could even buy two. Some people offered to buy a 1 Ghz pandora for it thats 700 dollars.

I'm sorry to say that bluntly but that's nothing. Do you know how much professional developpers are making normally when they develop a website, a piece of application, fix bugs on paid software, make custom solutions for clients, etc ?


If you give money, you have to benchmark vs how much they would be paid for the same amount of time working on a contract for someone else.


Time is limited for everyone. If money is the main motivator for your developer to me, believe me, he would not care less about the, let's say, 1000 $ he could make on a Dreamcast emulator (which would obviously take weeks, months of work!) versus any other paying activity he could take on.


As I say, I prefer rewarding developers after the work is done (in one way or another) rather than "cheapening" their work with not-good-enough bounties in the first place.


This being said, if you can raise 20 grands for a bounty, that's a totally different story. But most bounties I have seen so far are way to limited to be motivating in themselves. Money only works as motivator above a certain threshold.

Your missing my point entirely. I think the developer deserves a reward for making a product which the community clearly wants. However after it is done and out there how many people do you really think are going to donate? A bounty pretty much guarantees that they get something. So if they were building it for your reasons they would do it anyway, the bounty is just a bit of a cash thank you. I can't honestly see a developer get offended by the community banding together and go "Take my money for doing this, even if it is a token amount"


You think a user offering 100 dollars is nothing? There was another offering a 700 dollar Pandora as a bounty. So between two people alone that's 800 dollars worth of incentive basically. That seems quite alot to me given the price of software these days. Lets say 2% of the community each gave 100 that's a 8000 dollar bounty right there.


I do appreciate the work the developers are doing and that's why I want them compensated for doing it. Granted given the hours involved getting it working it might not seem like alot but some money is better than nothing.

 

[ekianjo]

You think a user offering 100 dollars is nothing? There was another offering a 700 dollar Pandora as a bounty. So between two people alone that's 800 dollars worth of incentive basically. That seems quite alot to me given the price of software these days. Lets say 2% of the community each gave 100 that's a 8000 dollar bounty right there.


I do appreciate the work the developers are doing and that's why I want them compensated for doing it. Granted given the hours involved getting it working it might not seem like alot but some money is better than nothing.

"Some money is better than nothing" -> the point is, you don't understand they are NOT doing this for money. If they were, they would spend their time doing some iOs app or something. It's fine to donate after they produce something if you like, but bounties are simply wrong: you try to attract developers with money while the money is NOT their motive for doing stuff. There are things were money has no place, really.


100 dollars IS nothing. And you won't get 2% of the community to give 100 dollars each. Did you see previous bounties ? As far as I know at most you get 10 people to agree on one project.


Besides, we're not near 4000 active members. You're clearly overestimating the power to raise money this community has. And if you are really serious about bounties, there's a very good place to do that in an very organized and disciplined way: kickstarter.

 

[erico]

Altough I agree with ekianjo´s point of view on the ´money is not the key´, I still believe there should be a bounty, or better call it differently but it will mean the same.


It will be somehow similar to a dev found for example and I think it is important, but so much that people understand that it is not the prime case, would be nice.


Even if the money is really short, it is still a compliment to know people are willing to put money on one idea, it dosen´t matter how much.


The thing is, that there are people with the will and capacity to do things and not everyone has eternal family money or an excellent day job to cover up for a hobby project.


Without some money, we will never see work done by this people since it will be just impossible to pull it out.


So, some money, even if just a bit, is always welcome.


Also, currency dictates euro/pounds/dollars are highly priced currency, so, Pandora being international, this could help developers from countries with lower currencies as the exchange may make the money worthwhile.


I do agree a bounty is not enough or the main reason for the more pro or people with easier life on the money/time issues, but it is important to have it none the less.


It makes things a bit more serious somehow, like playing poker for fun or for cents.

 

[ekianjo]

Also, currency dictates euro/pounds/dollars are highly priced currency, so, Pandora being international, this could help developers from countries with lower currencies as the exchange may make the money worthwhile.

I haven't seen of heard of any developper in INdia /China or the like yet. Have you ?


So far, it seems Pandora is limited to these highly values currency countries - because the Pandora is expensive. It's as simple as that.

 

[Wrath Of Khan]

As well as a possible better bounty systemjust a better dev section that shows devs what are the most requested emus/apps etc.It would be a devs choice as to whether he wanted to port/develope the requested software or just do his own thing.Also a 'refuse bounty option' and develop anyways could be made available.Perhaps there could be an option to donate the funds to a charity or organisation of the devs choice.I think a dreamcast emu for example could reach a few thousand pounds at least.Even so bounty or no bounty a more clear cut and organised software request area with links to available software source code if available could be implemented.A little more structure would go a long ways imo.