Please Defend Wikileaks!
- Thread starter shunun
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shunun
Member
Pleng said:
Elaborate..
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Pleng
Well-Known Member
- Joined
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Well it's pretty simple
Stating that you think you're on a higher plane than somebody else is going to get their back up. And therefore less likely to want to help you in your cause.
Don't think I can elaborate any more than that, sorry.
Stating that you think you're on a higher plane than somebody else is going to get their back up. And therefore less likely to want to help you in your cause.
Don't think I can elaborate any more than that, sorry.
WizardStan
Mega GP Mania
- Joined
- May 24, 2008
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You've provided mystery and a wealth of documents and said that the answer to the mystery is in those documents somewhere, and expect people with no current interest to spend the time going through those documents to see if they might become interested. But people are busy, some of us don't have time to read through many documents on the chance that there may be something of interest in there.shunun said:
The reason you seem to find that your coworkers are ignorant is because that's all stuff they've been told and no one has told them different. If you want to change it, you can't just say "I know something! It's in this book and you should read it too!" you should actually TELL them what it is you know, in a brief but interesting way, and then if they want the details give them the book or the link or the video or wherever it is you got your information from. Expecting others to want to adhere to your beliefs without ever actually explaining them is a fairly arrogant attitude to have in my opinion.
If you want people to be interested, you need to MAKE them interested, tell them what you know, especially if they ask a question. If they ask a question, it means they're showing some interest, and telling them to do their own research while you waggle the answer in front of them is, as you have seen, a way to make sure that person will quickly lose interest in your cause.
Consider if I said I had a delicious recipe; what would make you more interested in learning about it: me refusing to tell you what it tastes like; or me telling you it contains your favourite foods ever?
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shunun said:
First of all, and perhaps most importantly, I in no way ever implied that I was "pleasant", nor in any way did I express any desire to become "famous" so you can can go right ahead and vigorously apply suction to a particular part of my anatomy that shall not be specifically mentioned for the sake of any women and children.
Saying something like "they had it coming" in regards to 9/11 is disgusting and just goes to show how much of a stereotypical hippy wanker you are. None of the innocent civilians who died that day had anything coming, as you so eloquently put it, nor did anyone of any race, creed or religion who has fallen by the hand of any extremist group or what they represent. Christian or Muslim, liberal or conservative, extremism is fucking lame. But apparently you are a moderate individual :blink:
You and the socialist alliance can go sodomize yourselves with a large root vegetable. Indigenous rights and equality are issues that are blown way out of proportion by people who refuse to progress, and that goes for people on both sides of those issues. Asylum seekers have no rights when they try to circumnavigate the law and enter a country illegally and the gay issue is only an issue to people who are closeted and afraid. We live in a time where people are generally treating eachother better than they have in any other time in history, and people like you focus on the negatives rather than the positive progress that we have made as a species. There will always be conflict and hardship. People will never see eye to eye 100% of the time.
And you may not have realised it yet, but most reasonable folk will not want to be associated with condescending hippy wankers who are just as narrow minded as the people they see as part of the problem. You are most definitely not part of any solution. Hot air and delusions of grandeur get nothing done. And petitions are lame. Haircut, shower, steak, job. Get yourself at least one of them.
EDIT: I could go on all day and still not be able to cover everything. And before you get all "I have a job and I bathe regularly etc." who are you really trying to convince? :lol:
EDIT 2: There will never be complete political transparency. Ever. Anywhere. It isn't a possibility. And if you think about it a bit more you will understand why it is a completely retarded notion.
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Orion4874
Mega GP Mania
Oh, to be young and idealistic naive! Dude, you come here and speak like you want to change the world for the betterment of mankind, yet at the same time you say such ignorant and insane things about the United States. Could you possibly contradict yourself anymore or is spreading that kind of hatred ok with you?
BTW, there's plenty of Americans on these boards so you should be careful what kind of bs you spout against any nationality. Luckily for you I'm not a mod!
BTW, there's plenty of Americans on these boards so you should be careful what kind of bs you spout against any nationality. Luckily for you I'm not a mod!
We need things like Wikileaks to keep rogue governments exposed (they are all rogue). There is no transparency anymore. I don't care who is president. In the US we had the fascist Bush admin and the current admin continues his policies as Bush-lite. The fact is that CORPORATIONS own the governments now. Political parties are owned and operated by the corporate masters through "donations" (to me they should be called what they are, bribes). Everyone is on the take as the rich get richer and the rest of us swirl down the shitter.sold said:Wikileaks is a load of patchouli smellin', dreadlock growin, jam band loving hippy clap-trap
And shunun, what do you really accomplish by attending a "protest rally" really? It seems to me it's just a way for hippies to feel validated and pat each-other on the back. Maybe they get to chat about 9/11 conspiracies and exchange lentil recipes. I will close by suggesting that you get a hair cut and eat a goddamn steak before your vagina goes supernova and sucks you past its event horizon. Hippy
And no I am no "hippie" either. I would type more but I am too lazy. Besides the Pink Floyd CD has just ended and I have to put in another and go roll another doob.
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Orion4874
Mega GP Mania
DaveC said:
Yo DaveC, don't screw up the rotation, puff puff pass - puff puff pass! B) Also, The Doors and The Moody Blues are also great to listen to in that state of mind!
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shunun
Member
sold said:
Lol, I am not even going to waste my time. Go listen to some Cudi and smoke a joint.
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klikklak
Oh neat, it's a ... field.
Assange actually had some theory to back his actions. Basically he thinks that to get closed-secretive governments change, you have to make them not trust their inner circle, by having leaks that expose the actions of the said group. Ie. army does plans and does something nasty, someone leaks, army cannot trust themselves so much == their effectiveness lowers. That leaves them with either opening up and being honest, or being ineffective by not having functional communications.
Now if I could just find the url, brb.
EDIT: Assange's text on cryptome, straight from the horses mouth.
Now if I could just find the url, brb.
EDIT: Assange's text on cryptome, straight from the horses mouth.
I am kinda disappointed by the whole Wikileaks thing. I don't think it is productive, nor do I believe that it will be the catalyst for political transparency. Quite the opposite. I believe it will cause governments around the globe to more closely guard their secrets and classified information. Once bitten, twice shy.
There was never a quick fix, but now there is not only a large amount of information that could be seen as inflammatory and embarrassing being made public, but the bigger problem of diplomacy being undermined by these "leaks". Certain prominent political figures and diplomats personal opinions and private exchanges are now public and causing tension and potential conflict between entire fucking nations. For what? To create a media frenzy? Some secrets are better kept hidden.
There was never a quick fix, but now there is not only a large amount of information that could be seen as inflammatory and embarrassing being made public, but the bigger problem of diplomacy being undermined by these "leaks". Certain prominent political figures and diplomats personal opinions and private exchanges are now public and causing tension and potential conflict between entire fucking nations. For what? To create a media frenzy? Some secrets are better kept hidden.
Goity
VIP Sleaze
The problem is that nothing of any real interest or importance has come out of it. Most leaked documents are about how the Queen doesn't much approve of Ronnie Corbett, or how Obama said that Hillary Clinton looked a little bit rough around the edges, or Israel isn't a big fan of Palestine.
second exodous
Advanced Member
Yeah, most of it is pretty boring. Julian Assange should only report things that are breaking laws or treaties. Instead it is like he didn't even read what he was putting up and just threw it up there for all to see. Some of it was private stuff that no one should know. I'd think more of the guy if he did what I said before and just post the important stuff.
I do think that governments should never do anything illegal or go against pre-defined agreements it has made with other countries, stuff like that should be exposed. It should also be exposed by someone who actually cares not some guy that hates a particular country. When I first heard about it I though 'great, no more funny stuff' but now it is obvious this guy is just full of hate.
Also he looks too much like Bill Maher and they're both chuck full of hate, must be the way they comb their graying hair that makes 'em that way.
I do think that governments should never do anything illegal or go against pre-defined agreements it has made with other countries, stuff like that should be exposed. It should also be exposed by someone who actually cares not some guy that hates a particular country. When I first heard about it I though 'great, no more funny stuff' but now it is obvious this guy is just full of hate.
Also he looks too much like Bill Maher and they're both chuck full of hate, must be the way they comb their graying hair that makes 'em that way.
shunun
Member
http://www.youtube.com/v/hl4NlA97GeQ?fs=1&hl=en_US
I don't give a damn about Assange as a person. He is a narcissistic Media whore who claims to be a media critic. However he should be prosecuted for the crime he actually is accused of and that is rape! If they'd simply admit that they are looking to trial him as a traitor, everything would be fine. Spying on governments and releasing sensitive data to the public is a serious crime and you need to be prepared for consequences. I am not saying that I am opposed to wikileaks, I am actually quite fond of it.
I have attended dozens of protests and demonstrations. And I can tell you that sometimes it does change things. Like the CPE law in France which was successfully keeled over. I was there for 5 days protesting.
My hair is cut, I am a university student and have a job, I also just showered. I am also a Wing Tsun practitioner and have found myself in several violent confrontations with Neonazis and other assholes. I am not a pussy however or a lazy or stinky hippie. I could probably beat the shit out of you like there was no tomorrow. I also read a lot of books about politics and social matters. Maybe you should do the same before you blurb out random shit because you think you are oh so mighty as apparently people who get their hair cut regularly are the master race. Now go fuck a sheep on your farm you redneck retard. And get a real job! Cleaning up after the cattle is not an actual profession. While you're at it, buy some decent clothes. An overall and a wifebeater is nothing to wear at a place where people try to discuss politics and noone wants to see nor smell your armpits.
So who the fuck are you then to explain to us all what opinions and political stands we should take? I am not even going to particularly answer any of your "points"/polemic bullshit. Just for your info, I am a vegetarian, I consider myself an anarchist and just because you think there aren't any issues in your country, doesn't mean anyone else does or the rest of the world is fine.sold said:
I have attended dozens of protests and demonstrations. And I can tell you that sometimes it does change things. Like the CPE law in France which was successfully keeled over. I was there for 5 days protesting.
My hair is cut, I am a university student and have a job, I also just showered. I am also a Wing Tsun practitioner and have found myself in several violent confrontations with Neonazis and other assholes. I am not a pussy however or a lazy or stinky hippie. I could probably beat the shit out of you like there was no tomorrow. I also read a lot of books about politics and social matters. Maybe you should do the same before you blurb out random shit because you think you are oh so mighty as apparently people who get their hair cut regularly are the master race. Now go fuck a sheep on your farm you redneck retard. And get a real job! Cleaning up after the cattle is not an actual profession. While you're at it, buy some decent clothes. An overall and a wifebeater is nothing to wear at a place where people try to discuss politics and noone wants to see nor smell your armpits.
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@xnopasaranx You seem to have taken offense to my post. Allow me to clarify I didn't tell anyone what political opinions or views to have. I was merely expressing my strong distaste for liberal wankers (which coincidentally, frequently happen to be students) and their idealistic bullshit by using most the obvious stereotypes sarcastically and aiming them at someone who came across as super preachy. He/she struck me as a hippie conspiracy theorist, so I had a dig at him/her.
My point was basically fuck Julian Assange. It's not like he's some crusader for political transparency and I agree with your comment that he is a media whore. As for the rape allegations, do you live in Mexico or France or something? Just wondering as in most democratic countries there is the presumption of innocence. Being charged doesn't prove shit. And the standard of proof in criminal trials is beyond a reasonable doubt.
By the way, I am not a redneck, I don't work on a farm, and I am not sure which country you think I am from, but most countries have their problems and lets leave that issue right there. I'm totally cool with the fact that you disagree with what I said, but I think you may have misunderstood the tone, especially after obviously disregarding my most recent post which was in a more measured and moderate tone. You exhibit a shocking amount of closed-mindedness from someone who is trying come across as an activist and free thinker. As for the rest of your fucking retarded post, is that the best you could come up with? Fuck you. Enjoy your oxymoronic Anarchist demonstrations, douchebag.
EDIT: I find it humorous that Anarchists would organize a protest rally. Kinda contradictory, no? And I never expressed any particular political view or urged anyone to agree with me or adopt my beliefs which as I said, I never even mentioned, smart-guy.
My point was basically fuck Julian Assange. It's not like he's some crusader for political transparency and I agree with your comment that he is a media whore. As for the rape allegations, do you live in Mexico or France or something? Just wondering as in most democratic countries there is the presumption of innocence. Being charged doesn't prove shit. And the standard of proof in criminal trials is beyond a reasonable doubt.
By the way, I am not a redneck, I don't work on a farm, and I am not sure which country you think I am from, but most countries have their problems and lets leave that issue right there. I'm totally cool with the fact that you disagree with what I said, but I think you may have misunderstood the tone, especially after obviously disregarding my most recent post which was in a more measured and moderate tone. You exhibit a shocking amount of closed-mindedness from someone who is trying come across as an activist and free thinker. As for the rest of your fucking retarded post, is that the best you could come up with? Fuck you. Enjoy your oxymoronic Anarchist demonstrations, douchebag.
EDIT: I find it humorous that Anarchists would organize a protest rally. Kinda contradictory, no? And I never expressed any particular political view or urged anyone to agree with me or adopt my beliefs which as I said, I never even mentioned, smart-guy.
Yes just what I thought: You got nothing. In case you missed my point: I wrote that post to demonstrate how idiotic your senseless polemic bashing is by reproducing the same with my claims of you being a redneck sheep rapist et cetera. The only way to answer to a polemic rant is in a polemic style. I see your latest post is somewhat integer. Though I also stated that I do not give a crap about your opinions and don't want to answer to any of the points (which I am doing right now anyway) because my main problem is your tone. Big fucking high horse you are sitting on. And that crap about idealism: without idealists, there would be no american independence, french revolution, open source community, european union (wether one likes it or not), and no improvement whatsoever. Idealism is the drive of progression you idiot. What else would make someone try to cure cancer or HIV. And yes, I believe that assholes like Ahmadinedschad, Kim Jong Il and the numerous other oppressive governments are equivalent to tumors and need to be stopped from spreading. This is why I think a revolutionary take on "reforming" those politics is critical because external forces will only replace structural and institutional hierarchy and become the oppressors themselves. Of course this is not the case with democratic countries. Militancy is not adequate here and bombing something does not achieve anything. So I venture to lectures, read books and go to protest marches if I support the cause.
If you think organization and anarchism is not compatible, you obviously, like so many others, have no fucking idea what you are talking about. You are talking about the general term of anarchy which describes an ungoverned state of chaos only. Anarchism on the other hand is only possible through organization. Organization does not mean leadership. This is infact the essence of all anarchistic theory. Like I said, maybe you should read a book first before blabbing about things that you don't understand or know anything about. And why is it that university students are often part of the so called liberal left wing? Well maybe because they still need to use their heads for altruistic considerations rather then for trading stocks.
Just because I am an anarchist does not mean I am claiming to be tolerant or open minded about anything. Where do people always get these ideas? I will never tolerate international corporate warfare, racism, antisemitism, homophobia and ignorance. So fuck you right back at ya.
EDIT: At least we can agree on Julian Assange being a douchebag and conspiracy nerds to be people with too much fucking time on their hands and no girlfriends.
If you think organization and anarchism is not compatible, you obviously, like so many others, have no fucking idea what you are talking about. You are talking about the general term of anarchy which describes an ungoverned state of chaos only. Anarchism on the other hand is only possible through organization. Organization does not mean leadership. This is infact the essence of all anarchistic theory. Like I said, maybe you should read a book first before blabbing about things that you don't understand or know anything about. And why is it that university students are often part of the so called liberal left wing? Well maybe because they still need to use their heads for altruistic considerations rather then for trading stocks.
Just because I am an anarchist does not mean I am claiming to be tolerant or open minded about anything. Where do people always get these ideas? I will never tolerate international corporate warfare, racism, antisemitism, homophobia and ignorance. So fuck you right back at ya.
EDIT: At least we can agree on Julian Assange being a douchebag and conspiracy nerds to be people with too much fucking time on their hands and no girlfriends.
Anarchy? Sounds alot like Libertarianism. Guess what that just isn't plausible today and is naive. It may work if it applied to a small town of 30 or something.xnopasaranx said:
But in a world of billions it is rediculous. It is the old "I got mine, fuck you" style where if you weren't born into the lucky sperm club of the rich you will be left to die. It is like all of the nuts here in the US that follow Ron Paul. Ron is rich, he can make it easily on his own without any government programs. We aren't all multi-millionaires like him that can afford the best of everything with cash however. Under anarchy what happens to those too old to work but never made enough to save a big pile of cash? How about those who are disabled etc? Not everyone can be a doctor, lawyer, or be at the top of their profession. Remember you don't have any kind of "Social security" or "Medicare " type government programs. Who fixes the roads? Who pays the Police and fire departments? Who does this "organization" you speak of? Who keeps the corporations from making products that kill you or food that poisons you? You will just trust that everyone will just do the right thing? If you want to live in an anarchist/libertarian place then go to Somalia, see how great it is.
Also even if Assange is a "douchebag" or whatever that doesn't mean EVERYTHING he does is automatically bad either. Many would like to know what chicanery the goverment may be up to.
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Fishbong
man of poor reputation
Ah, another ignorant DaveC post :lol:.
For someone who doesn't even know the difference between Anarchy and Anarchism you manage to write quite a lot about what you surmise to be someones political ideals. Guess you haven't been born into the "lucky brain club", am i right?
FYI: This is the information age, so go and inform yourself before spouting bullshit. And if that's too hard for you, please move to Yahoo! Answers, where ignorance easily passes as knowledge if it is propagated with enough zeal.
And sold, i would advise you to use more arguments and less stereotypes if you want to be taken seriously.
For someone who doesn't even know the difference between Anarchy and Anarchism you manage to write quite a lot about what you surmise to be someones political ideals. Guess you haven't been born into the "lucky brain club", am i right?
FYI: This is the information age, so go and inform yourself before spouting bullshit. And if that's too hard for you, please move to Yahoo! Answers, where ignorance easily passes as knowledge if it is propagated with enough zeal.
And sold, i would advise you to use more arguments and less stereotypes if you want to be taken seriously.
My tone is generally tongue in cheek with the hippy stuff. And usually only hippies take offense. I am not sitting on any high horse. I just don't like when people latch on to the latest issues in the aim of appearing to have their finger on the pulse of current events and political issues. But thats my problem. In regard to my response to xnopasaranx, I was trying to get a rise out of him by being silly about anarchists. But to be honest I do think people have missed the definition of anarchy somewhere along the line, especially when used by members of the conservative media to put a negative spin on civil unrest. The fuck you bit was mainly because his attempt to offend me was lame and I don't take kindly to the mention of physical violence, especially when claims of kicking ass can hardly be proven over the internet. But I totally get it cause I get the urge to say shit like that to people every now and then as well :lol:
Yeah I was being combative, but I was kidding for the most part and I never threatened anybody.
@xnopasaranx: A lot of what you said in your last post makes a lot of sense, but I still maintain that even though making some noise can bring attention to an issue, in a lot of cases that noise is made by a very vocal minority and it does not necessarily bring change with it. For example, nearly every time you get a global financial summit, left wing "socialist" types protest and the only difference that is made that day is there are a few more people hospitalized and/or arrested. And to be honest, I personally have no problem with capitalism. It allows me to have broadband internet and the gadgets to use it with. And there is no pure form of capitalism in the world as long as there is welfare and tax payer funded/government owned infrastructure.
Protest can sometimes be counterproductive when the people who feel strongly about an issue drag their own names and causes through the mud by behaving poorly. For example, does hijacking a Japanese whaling ship stop whaling? Is using aggression going to help spread a fundamentally positive message? I doubt it. That being said, I believe in the right to protest and to be heard, but some things are just a tad silly imho. Julian Assange has pissed off many powerful people, and they want his nuts in a sling, but why should people rally for Wikileaks? I think they've bitten themselves in the ass and actually taken a step backwards from their intention to make governments more transparent by being totally irresponsible in their handling of information and their lack of journalism ethics. That's totally why I jumped at the OP.
As for idealism being the drive of progress, I agree that many passionate and idealistic people have changed the world, but it seems to me that their successes or failures depended on whether or not what they offer can be bought and sold. And as much as it may piss people of, the truth is greedy assholes have done good things for us by capitalizing on the ingenuity and strengths of idealistic people by selling their products and ideas to the rest of us for a profit. So inadvertently they helped do some positive stuff in the name of greed. And because of corporate greed we could one day buy the awesome new cancer cures or the kickass new tech gear that will be hacked and made useful through open source software. Imho without capitalism, we wouldn't have evolved socially, technologically and mentally as quickly as we have as a species in the last 100 years. Competition forces people to advance. And that advancement makes for more fierce competition. Evolve or die. I don't see anything wrong there. We all die anyway.
#Fishbong: DaveC has a point in mentioning that the social services and utilities that exist today would not in Anarchism. I don't see how it would be possible to have things like public transport or health care without a system of government, hence a hierarchy of leadership. I don't see how people can coexist without boundaries and a way of enforcing them. And all that means unfortunately, true freedom does not exist and never will without mankind taking a major evolutionary step backwards to a more brutal existence imho.
Freedom is an illusion and all we can do collectively is make an individual effort to prove we deserve the rights we have. In order to remain as free as we can within an oppressive system we have to be responsible and preserve those rights while striving for more. The major problem is dumb assholes. They are the ones who make it necessary for every damn thing that can potentially become a social disease because of irresponsibility to be legislated. So sensible people are oppressed because the lowest common denominator is generally a stupid dick. But even then, the illusion of freedom is still better than the harsh reality of the alternative imho. Because if we were truly free, there would be only one rule. Survival of the fittest.
And stereotypes are funny
Yeah I was being combative, but I was kidding for the most part and I never threatened anybody.
@xnopasaranx: A lot of what you said in your last post makes a lot of sense, but I still maintain that even though making some noise can bring attention to an issue, in a lot of cases that noise is made by a very vocal minority and it does not necessarily bring change with it. For example, nearly every time you get a global financial summit, left wing "socialist" types protest and the only difference that is made that day is there are a few more people hospitalized and/or arrested. And to be honest, I personally have no problem with capitalism. It allows me to have broadband internet and the gadgets to use it with. And there is no pure form of capitalism in the world as long as there is welfare and tax payer funded/government owned infrastructure.
Protest can sometimes be counterproductive when the people who feel strongly about an issue drag their own names and causes through the mud by behaving poorly. For example, does hijacking a Japanese whaling ship stop whaling? Is using aggression going to help spread a fundamentally positive message? I doubt it. That being said, I believe in the right to protest and to be heard, but some things are just a tad silly imho. Julian Assange has pissed off many powerful people, and they want his nuts in a sling, but why should people rally for Wikileaks? I think they've bitten themselves in the ass and actually taken a step backwards from their intention to make governments more transparent by being totally irresponsible in their handling of information and their lack of journalism ethics. That's totally why I jumped at the OP.
As for idealism being the drive of progress, I agree that many passionate and idealistic people have changed the world, but it seems to me that their successes or failures depended on whether or not what they offer can be bought and sold. And as much as it may piss people of, the truth is greedy assholes have done good things for us by capitalizing on the ingenuity and strengths of idealistic people by selling their products and ideas to the rest of us for a profit. So inadvertently they helped do some positive stuff in the name of greed. And because of corporate greed we could one day buy the awesome new cancer cures or the kickass new tech gear that will be hacked and made useful through open source software. Imho without capitalism, we wouldn't have evolved socially, technologically and mentally as quickly as we have as a species in the last 100 years. Competition forces people to advance. And that advancement makes for more fierce competition. Evolve or die. I don't see anything wrong there. We all die anyway.
#Fishbong: DaveC has a point in mentioning that the social services and utilities that exist today would not in Anarchism. I don't see how it would be possible to have things like public transport or health care without a system of government, hence a hierarchy of leadership. I don't see how people can coexist without boundaries and a way of enforcing them. And all that means unfortunately, true freedom does not exist and never will without mankind taking a major evolutionary step backwards to a more brutal existence imho.
Freedom is an illusion and all we can do collectively is make an individual effort to prove we deserve the rights we have. In order to remain as free as we can within an oppressive system we have to be responsible and preserve those rights while striving for more. The major problem is dumb assholes. They are the ones who make it necessary for every damn thing that can potentially become a social disease because of irresponsibility to be legislated. So sensible people are oppressed because the lowest common denominator is generally a stupid dick. But even then, the illusion of freedom is still better than the harsh reality of the alternative imho. Because if we were truly free, there would be only one rule. Survival of the fittest.
And stereotypes are funny
