Pandora Tablet Mod

[Illuminerdi]

So I've got my preorder, and now I can't stop thinking about the damn thing and I know I'm in the minority on this, but based on the renders and currently available information, I dislike the aesthetic of the Pandora currently. This is not meant as an insult to the design or the designers, nor those that do like it (which seems to be most everyone), I'm just one of those people who likes their shiny gadgets to literally be shiny.

Call me crazy, but I love the glossy ipod plastic jelly bean piano finish on gadgets. Yeah, I know it's trendy. To each their own, right?

So I'm hopeful that someone will sell/make replacement housing shells for the Pandora, for those of us who are looking for something other than matte black plastic. I recently swapped shells on my DS Lite and had a blast in the process, so I have the modder's itch, I suppose.

Anyhow, this got me thinking - I know the Pandora itself won't ever have/sell with a tablet mode such as a fully foldback hinge or a rotating screen, due to the licensing issues and subsequent cost increase this would incur on the project, but in theory could someone sell a shell kit that enabled one of these features without incurring a lawyering and/or royalties?

I'm doubtful, but I thought I'd ask the community if anyone happens to speak patent-law: would the patents on these sorts of innovations only cover fully prefab devices with LCD built in, or would they extend to a mod kit such as this?

Or, if all else fails, there's always the possibility of the chinese grey market (where I bought my knock off DS Lite shell...), as it seems to flaunt patent/IP law at will...

 

[nubie]

EDIT: I have been rude, I am sorry. Please continue normal service and don't mind too much if I am bitching, thanks.


Knee-Jerk: Try it first, then bitch. I don't think that the DS owners are all bitching at their layout.

QUOTE

Call me crazy, but I love the glossy ipod plastic jelly bean piano finish on gadgets. Yeah, I know it's trendy. To each their own, right?

So I'm hopeful that someone will sell/make replacement housing shells for the Pandora, for those of us who are looking for something other than matte black plastic. I recently swapped shells on my DS Lite and had a blast in the process, so I have the modder's itch, I suppose.


Modder's itch? If you had the modder's itch you would have some polishing compound or jewelers paper and you could "glossy" the damn thing yourself.


The same applies to the "foldback" screen. I don't know if anyone would get sued, I guess just try it and find out.

I don't think that you can get sued for some wiring and a hinge, if you sell them seperately. More importantly you are stuck with the touch-screen only if you do that, so you would need a d-pad and some action keys to get any mileage out of it set up that way.


I re-iterate, try the damn thing first and then complain. It is the size of a Nintendo DS, I don't see its form factor causing a problem.

 

[baztailor]

Wow, why jump on the guy like that? Didn't sound to me like he was complaining, like he said each to their own, no need to give him shit for it. There are going to be plenty of people Itching to get their hands on it so they can mod it, isn't that part of what it's all about?

 

[Illuminerdi]

Knee-Jerk: Try it first, then bitch. I don't think that the DS owners are all bitching at their layout.

The layout works - sure, but am I the only person on the planet who gets tired of holding the DS Lite by the side when using the stylus? I'd much rather have a foldback/tablet style device so that I can support the entire device when using the stylus. And there are plenty of stylus-only apps already coming for the Pandora. ScummVM will use almost no keyboard, so tablet mode is a natural fit.

Anyway, my intention was not to criticize the design of the system - I'm glad the team and community chose a proven, workable design (clamshell), and I know I'll like it, and I gave them 350 USD of my support - I just want to try something different. 4 years of pretty heavy DS use has taught me that clamshell, while functional and workable, is not my personal ideal. I work for a games company that makes DS games - I've spent years holding a clamshell device every day, and I'd like to try something new.

QUOTE
Modder's itch? If you had the modder's itch you would have some polishing compound or jewelers paper and you could "glossy" the damn thing yourself.

I'm more of a screwdriver and solder kind of modder than a buffing and polishing kind of modder. I've never felt that sanding and polishing can get the same kind of look and feel that doubleshot injection molding plastic has naturally. If you know of any techniques that more accurately mimic this style of look, please point me to them, and I'm certainly open to suggestion.

QUOTE
The same applies to the "foldback" screen. I don't know if anyone would get sued, I guess just try it and find out.
I don't think that you can get sued for some wiring and a hinge, if you sell them seperately. More importantly you are stuck with the touch-screen only if you do that, so you would need a d-pad and some action keys to get any mileage out of it set up that way.

The idea I had was for a dual purpose setup so that you can still use the dpad and keyboard, but you could also switch to tablet only mode (any of these solutions - hinge, foldback, even sliding keyboard/keys would allow for that) should the user so desire.

QUOTE
I re-iterate, try the damn thing first and then complain. It is the size of a Nintendo DS, I don't see its form factor causing a problem.

First off, I hesitate to say I was complaining. If that's how it came off, then I apologize - I'm not criticizing the decisions the team or the community made (especially as I haven't touched one in person yet) - the reasons for those decisions are perfectly valid. And I will try the device, certainly, and may change my tune once it's in my hands.

However, I doubt I'm the only person in this community who would at least be curious to try this. Maybe it's not even beneficial, but people don't mod things solely for useful purposes - some people just want customization, or to add one more feature regardless of its usefulness. And no, I wouldn't get sued if I did my own mod of this. My inquiry was to the feasibility of someone (myself, someone else, even the Pandora team) selling a prefab mod kit that does this and whether or not such a kit would incur the wrath of the IP gods.

 

[Bramrash]

I think it'd be great to have the screen either fold all the way round, so that the keys are on the bottom, of have it swivel so that the keys are out of the way completely. There are loads of situations that this can come into use:

scummVm, RTS's, drawing apps, and these aren't small genre's either. I love the old lucas arts games, and for me, the screen positioning almost pulled me towards getting a wiz.



And now the real reason for this post, I salute you Illuminerdi, that was a VERY well written response to a VERY unneccessarily aggressive response. I don't think I would have had the patience.

 

[baztailor]

QUOTE
However, I doubt I'm the only person in this community who would at least be curious to try this. Maybe it's not even beneficial, but people don't mod things solely for useful purposes - some people just want customization, or to add one more feature regardless of its usefulness.


Certainly not the only one, its always interesting to see what's possible.

 

[CronoTrig]

It's been said before, the tablet design is trademarked, so you can't copy it.

 

[Wegg]

I have actually been thinking I'd want a grippier (is that a word?) less shiny surface like the shoulders on my Tapwave Zodiac. A "grip" texture that will stop it from sliding around so much, not pick up finger prints as much and look more stealth and less "bling".

 

[Illuminerdi]

It's been said before, the tablet design is trademarked, so you can't copy it.

Hence the reason I'm asking the question - I know that it's trademarked, but how far does that extend? Would it extend to a mod kit, or does it only cover an out-of-the-box tablet device? I know that I could do my own custom mod and while possibly a violation of the patents, it wouldn't really get me in trouble.

I'm curious if it will be possible to sell a kit to make this happen. If possible, hell, maybe I'll look into what it would take to make and sell one myself in small quantities - but the first step is finding out whether or not doing so would get me in trouble.

Corollary question for the devs: if this is possible, would you be willing to open source the design schematics for the Pandora case to make fabricating and selling a mod kit easier?

And now the real reason for this post, I salute you Illuminerdi, that was a VERY well written response to a VERY unneccessarily aggressive response. I don't think I would have had the patience.

Heh, thanks.

 

[kloplop321]

Well just like how you can modify what you buy after you buy it, but you just can't sell it exclusively like a business or else you will have legal issues. but a kit to do it, I don't think that would infringe upon anything, as they have things like modchip sets/kits which don't have issues because they are not actually selling a modded system.

 

[Illuminerdi]

Well just like how you can modify what you buy after you buy it, but you just can't sell it exclusively like a business or else you will have legal issues. but a kit to do it, I don't think that would infringe upon anything, as they have things like modchip sets/kits which don't have issues because they are not actually selling a modded system.

True, but here's the thing: a mod chip isn't in danger of violating patents (AFAIK), it's in danger of violating copyrights. So they're a bit of a different area - modchipping a console doesn't change whether or not that console itself suddenly violates a patent, it just enables the console to run homebrew/imports (and/or violate copyrights if you're...less scrupulous).

I get the feeling that the only answer I'm going to get on this topic will come from a lawyer...

 

[kloplop321]

Well just like how you can modify what you buy after you buy it, but you just can't sell it exclusively like a business or else you will have legal issues. but a kit to do it, I don't think that would infringe upon anything, as they have things like modchip sets/kits which don't have issues because they are not actually selling a modded system.

True, but here's the thing: a mod chip isn't in danger of violating patents (AFAIK), it's in danger of violating copyrights. So they're a bit of a different area - modchipping a console doesn't change whether or not that console itself suddenly violates a patent, it just enables the console to run homebrew/imports (and/or violate copyrights if you're...less scrupulous).

I get the feeling that the only answer I'm going to get on this topic will come from a lawyer...

I would not suggest contacting a company about it, they will prolly just give you a half-false answer or just bum you out.

 

[nubie]

Thanks, sorry if I was a little flyback, but honestly I thought it was going very easy on you.

I don't think there is a market for a different case, the entire market/production for this device is likely to be smaller than a run of aftermarket cases for a Sony or Nintendo product.

Tablet only? Maybe I am old-school, but I can't get into tablets (I have a 486 IBM tablet here, maybe I should put some of the LucasArts adventure games on it and see if it is indeed usable without the keyboard).

Most of the charm of the Pandora for me is the keyboard, so I am a bit reluctant to part ways with it, even temporarily.

And now the real reason for this post, I salute you Illuminerdi, that was a VERY well written response to a VERY unneccessarily aggressive response. I don't think I would have had the patience.

Hmm. OK.

I am fully behind modifying this console, but asking for 3rd party, or 1st party "modder" addons is just plain lazy, and it does make me pissed.

IF you plan to mod the console, (as I have started threads on, do a search), perhaps it would be best to think it through fully and start with a Beagle-Board ($150, and a DVI interface).

As for the screen folding back fully, maybe if we find that the wiring can be changed we can just make a nifty hinge that will change it. But again, I don't think the price will be any good.

My suggestion: Leave the fully integrated Pandora alone, make your own from the BeagleBoard. Save $170 up front and use that toward making your dream a reality. I want a 6-7 inch screen and a dpad/action key layout. I suppose I also want to use the really cool Palm Pilot fold-out keyboard as well, that would be my keyboard.

Coming on here and asking for somebody else to do all your work is not modding/hacking, neither is unscrewing your case and putting on a new one. The attitude, not the goals, is what pissed me off.

IF I was to investigate a new case, I would probably use Aluminum and polish that. Personally the "polished plastic" look needs to die a horrible death, it looks like crap.

It all comes down to personalization, you think that just because there is a device already customized fully to a scene's wishes that the couple of minor niggles you have could be fixed by another vendor.

Welcome to real life. The second company would have to expend thousands if not millions of dollars making a product to suit your actual desire, and then would you be able to afford it?

Nintendo or Sony for example spend millions making their products very robust, so somebody can come along and make a clone case that is reasonably durable for next to nothing in development costs.

You want a hinge re-design sold to you, have you even wondered why there is a patent? Maybe because actually making a useful folding/rotating display takes a lot of money?

I don't care, you won't get one, you can make your own if you like.

I love modding, I really really do. I want to use a mill to cut my own case and put in my own screen, and modify the Pandora with a "standard" layout like the GP2X, but with a slide-out keyboard. Then polish the damn thing to a mirror sheen with a logo milled into the back.

I don't want cheap-ass chinese cases that will split and tear up my innards, and any reasonably robust case I could purchase would likely cost too much and not offer all I wanted anyway. So I prefer my own "Hackaday methods", thanks anyway. http://hackaday.com/2008/07/07/eee-pc-tablet-build/ http://hackaday.com/2008/09/22/changing-th...01-form-factor/

Not to discourage you from "actively" asking people to put up money and time so you can wield your screwdriver and feel important.

PS this has all been discussed, and If I wasn't so grumpy I could just point you at the dozen or more threads on this subject. Do feel free to go investigate my DIY tablet initiative, it is probably in the off-topic or other consoles section of the forum, where it belongs.

 

[baztailor]

It's been said before, the tablet design is trademarked, so you can't copy it.

Well if it's non-commercial for personal use, what's to stop anyone from "knocking" one up by their own means i.e. university workshop, could rapid prototype it or CNC some ABS etc etc, however if one doesn't have these facilities or he'd like to take it further for a more professional outcome, I guess he'd have to commission someone to do it (now becomes commercial?) and perhaps that's where things turn a little gray, can patents be used in prototyping?

Patents eh?!

Don't quote me on this, I know nothing about patent law.

 

[nubie]

Just to get into the nuts and bolts of it (this would have been so much easier if you had come with a DIY attitude btw.)

You should design the entire unit from the ground up to be the way you want it. Too many compromises and you get a product that is flimsy and clumsy.

Start with a clean slate and design the product from the ground up, don't use their files as a base.

It will cost a similar amount of money to do it from the start (even using their PCB and keys), so why not use a slide keyboard and a more pleasing form factor if you plan to start at all?

 

[Illuminerdi]

Not to discourage you from "actively" asking people to put up money and time so you can wield your screwdriver and feel important.

I'm actually not asking anyone to put up money or even time (beyond answering the question I asked about the patent) for this, I'm just trying to find an answer to this question. Once the question is answered definitively, then I'll look at the next step: doing it myself either for personal or prototyping purposes, or not.

Is it possible someone will take my idea and run with it? Yeah, but I'm not counting on it. If so: great, they've got my money. If not, it's not as if I'm doing any harm in simply asking this question, am I? I'm interested in the answer specifically because I may pursue this on my own time if interest is shown - I'm not even looking to make money, I'd just like to contribute to the project some how, and I think this would be a neat way to do so. But again, that's all 10 steps ahead of where I am right now, which is finding answers.

As for the DIY route - while I support such an endeavor, doing it with a beagleboard adds far too many hitches to the equation - the BB itself has no prefab hookup for a battery, and its form factor is square, not rectangular, plus it has no easy hookup for an embedded LCD, and it has no keyboard sensors built in, requiring some kind of portable keyboard solution, or sacrificing the keyboard.

The Pandora's PCB has already solved all of these problems, rendering it portable from the get go, so it would be too much work for me to make a beagleboard based tablet (however, if you can do so, go for it) - making and replacing the case of the Pandora would be far less time and work, and since the Pandora is an open platform, I see no reason anyone would object - isn't that the whole point of it also being an open platform like the beagleboard? You can do what you want with it?

 

[baztailor]

@nubie - whats the problem with "off the shelf" pre-fab case/mod kits? people are free to choose to do it for themselves OR simply buy "off the self," for whatever reasons, cost, convenience, lack of know how, etc, I really don't see why you think that's wrong... Actually i probably don't want hear your response so never mind.

Anyway, despite all the practical problems, I hope the OP gets a definitive answer to his question and good luck to him!

 

[Polossatik]

There is a difference between getting sued and illegally doing something h34r:.

A patent (the original idea behind it anyway) is to protect a idea, not a certain shape or form.
A shape or form or logo would be copyrighted - a whole other story.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent

For example, let's say the idea to have a screen swivel and fold back like you see on many tablet pc's is patented.
This means that to use this idea (make a device with a screen that swivels and folds back) you have to make a agreement with the patent owner that he/she let's you use the idea (and you pay something or not - that is irrelvant).

A patent is always deposed for a certain region, so it's quite possible that this is done for the US but not for the EU so you can use this "idea" without problems in the EU.

if your idea is different enough from existing patents (you mange to make a swivel that rotates without moving parts or so) then it depends on the "claims" of the other patent if this includes your idea or not.

some things cannot be patented any more - it's "protection" is limited in time and a patent needs to be for something new, if someone would try to patent the "clamshell" idea then there is sufficient prove that this is not a new idea.

Now to answer your question, if you want to do this 100% legally then yes, you need a lawyer who works with this kind of stuff and it will cost you (big) bucks - even just to get an idea who has what patent and what patent is applicable etc.

Practically if you do a "homebrew" mod/case you risk little. The whole idea for patent owners is to get $$$, if you make a serie of 10 swivel shells and sell these here on the board chances are very slim that someone will sue you, there is just not enough $$ to make, let alone for the patent owner to prove they had "economical damage" - what is what counts in courts to get penalty's. But in theory it's indeed possible to be sued. You can always explain here or on instructables how to make a swivel /pivot shell your self, in that case any patent holder has to sue every individual - rather unlikely.

With the pandora itself it's different, this is a commercial venture, making the thing in (relatively) big nr's.
you have a company / designer team etc to sue and you can then claim "economical damage".

I hope this put things a bit in perspective.
of course, for a full statement, please see a patent lawyer office... B)

ps: regarding the "open platform" no one can prohibit you to take any device that you actually own (not lease/rent) and take it apart or do something else with it like http://www.willitblend.com/ ...

 

[Illuminerdi]

I hope this put things a bit in perspective.
of course, for a full statement, please see a patent lawyer office... B)

Actually, that helps a lot, thanks. And yeah, ultimately I'd need to talk to a lawyer about this, but every little bit of information helps. My big fear is that if I did this and sold it, that it would become successful enough to be a problem. At what point does the patent holder start to care? 10 kits, no. 100, probably not. 1000?

Of course that begs the question of how popular the Pandora gets, and if I made such a kit, how popular it got. You're right in pointing out that it probably wouldn't draw a lawsuit, since I doubt more than a few dozen would be made/sold if I went that route, and to be honest, I'm not sure if I'd ever have the time to really make it happen.

I am still interested in obtaining the case schematics though, even without modding to add a tablet mode, I am interested in looking into things such as alternate colors/finishes, as getting those made probably wouldn't be terribly difficult. Time to PM a dev.

 

[trooper]

I hope this put things a bit in perspective.
of course, for a full statement, please see a patent lawyer office... B)

Actually, that helps a lot, thanks. And yeah, ultimately I'd need to talk to a lawyer about this, but every little bit of information helps. My big fear is that if I did this and sold it, that it would become successful enough to be a problem. At what point does the patent holder start to care? 10 kits, no. 100, probably not. 1000?

Of course that begs the question of how popular the Pandora gets, and if I made such a kit, how popular it got. You're right in pointing out that it probably wouldn't draw a lawsuit, since I doubt more than a few dozen would be made/sold if I went that route, and to be honest, I'm not sure if I'd ever have the time to really make it happen.

I am still interested in obtaining the case schematics though, even without modding to add a tablet mode, I am interested in looking into things such as alternate colors/finishes, as getting those made probably wouldn't be terribly difficult. Time to PM a dev.


Just a quote from MWeston (The designer and creator of the Pandora's motherboard) who is part of the development team in response to another members questions about the Pandora being an open platform. Asking whether schematic or documentation will be available to the public, Which may interest you.

For MWeston

I know this project is about open source? My question is will there be support for hardware hackers? I mean will schematic or documentation like for the beagleboard be available? Im not saying that this is completely same as beagleboard. Im only asking. Some people would also like to tweak their hardware once in a while. Thanks

No, the hardware will not be open like it is with the Beagleboard. The BB is a development kit while Pandora is a consumer product. There is so much more to the Pandora hardware and many things I designed in myself. Full schematics, gerbers and design files are kept private in the interest of the product and my involvement.

Now, I really don't think that will affect anyone who wants to hack their system. That stuff is more of a benefit to someone who wanted to COPY the design. All of the connections made to the processor are documented in the source code so you will know what every pin does. These chips use via in pad technology and all the high speed stuff is sandwiched in the board between multiple plane layers so you couldn't actually scratch off the mask and start probing the signals anyway.

I will have a termination point for every signal I was able to fan out from the processor, implemented or not and all connectors and headers for the entire Pandora will be documented and freely available; Subject to that "at your own risk and voided warranty" clause of course.....

Link to original post Here.

Trooper