Overview of SoC options

[rohezal]

Found an emmc factory, maybe ask them directly?

http://www.jetone.com.tw/product_show.asp?pid=108

When you buy 1000 or 10000 it should be under 18$ for 16GB. Maybe 30$ or 35$ for 32 GB?

 

[CrazyIvan]

Don't forget that it costs a lot to stop production and change reel. So you'd want to make either an entire batch with every capaity, or at least an entire reel's worth of eMMC. The former is probably smaller. That you need an entire reel of multiple eMMC chips also means higher initial capital need to get production started.

This and warranty problems (you have to have some spare boards and with so few boards produced the usual statistics couldn't work) in my opinion could make non-standard eMMC sizes cost prohibitive.

But internal capacity could be increased later (some kind of mid-life upgrade after about 2 years of pyra production)

 

[rohezal]

Wrote a request to this website ... here is the result:
 

Microsoft OLE DB Provider for ODBC Drivers ���~ '80040e21'

�h���B�J OLE DB �ާ@�o�Ϳ��~�C���ˬd�C�@�ӥi�Ϊ� OLE DB ���A�ȡC�|����������ާ@�C

/inquiry_submit.asp, �C33

Yes it is a database connection error.

 

[trix]

For SoC, my wish list is:

x86 (Don't get me wrong, I love ARM... but I want more x86 games to work and qemu is not good enough. For a gaming device, games come first)

Multicore (being able to quickly pop back and forth to gamefaqs and email and pidgin and irssi and whatever game I'm working on is necessary)

8+GB internal memory WITH NO WRITE LIMIT (I want my expensive supergizmo to still work perfectly after 15 years of constant use)

GPU that can handle OpenGL (not just -ES, so many games I want do not work with GLES)

ability to run the machine purely from AC power with no battery inserted in case the battery is kaput.

HDMI out

full size SD slot(s)

full size USB slot(s) with 1.1 or 2.0 (and maybe 3.0) compatibility... needing a USB hub for the original Pandora sucked.

An autographed photo of EvilDragon for placement in the center of my Altar to him (may not be SoC-related)

The same or better audio output quality of the Pandora (no other device has ever sounded so good on my headphones)

Hardware volume wheel or slider (may not be SoC related)

Actually I'm not sure at all which of these are practical and which may not be SoC-related.  I tried to keep out most of the obvious non-SoC things I want like Bluetooth, integrated Pico Projector, and The Biggest Battery Known To Man, but I might have missed a few.

Anyway that's my SoC list.

 - trix

 

[doragasu]

What stuff do you plan to install into your internal memory? Even my desktop Linux machine doesn't need more than 15GB for the stuff I need... games should stay on SD Card, so how many tools and standard applications do you need? Memory and storage are some of the most expensive parts... using 64GB would probabbly increase the end price by 60 EUR compared to 16GB...

Agree. I use a Samsung ARM Chromebook running ArchLinux (I completely removed the stupid ChromeOS) for my daily work. It only has 16 GiB internal eMMC and it's more than enough for me. I have even two Windows virtual machines (running with QEmu) and everything fits inside the 16 GiB without problems.

 

[Letalis Sonus]

8+GB internal memory WITH NO WRITE LIMIT (I want my expensive supergizmo to still work perfectly after 15 years of constant use)

So you want a whole HDD in there? Because everything else (except maybe experimental new memory types that are not yet commercially available anyway) has that type of wear as flash memory is pretty much the only alternative - no matter if you've got an integrated controller (e.g. SD cards) or plain software-based wear-levelling (as we have now through UbiFS), flash memory will always run out of writes and fail at some point. Sure, modern flash elements are way more robust and SLC cells can enhance the duration by several magnitudes already compared to MLC (or TLC), but SLC elements are pretty expensive and surely hard to get in a format that is feasible for us. Minimize the write accesses (a Linux system can work quite nicely without any write access) and the included flash element may as well survive way more than 15 years of constant use.

 

[CrazyIvan]

x86 (Don't get me wrong, I love ARM... but I want more x86 games to work and qemu is not good enough. For a gaming device, games come first) Multicore (being able to quickly pop back and forth to gamefaqs and email and pidgin and irssi and whatever game I'm working on is necessary)

GPU that can handle OpenGL (not just -ES, so many games I want do not work with GLES)

 
that's atom z3xxx, the second best SoC for pyra. The best is supposed to be OMAP5 because of binary compatibility with current programs (which most certainly will be used for pyra)

8+GB internal memory WITH NO WRITE LIMIT (I want my expensive supergizmo to still work perfectly after 15 years of constant use)

Probably someone could sell you this for a pair of shoes that'll never wear out.

full size USB slot(s) with 1.1 or 2.0 (and maybe 3.0) compatibility...

unless you provide usb slot specification (and probably a manufacturer of usb slots according to this specification)  there won't be any.

There will be USB port though and pyra will most certainly have internal USB hub with support for at least 1.1 and 2.0 (according to ED it's built in most modern SoCs)

 

[thatgui]

x86 (Don't get me wrong, I love ARM... but I want more x86 games to work and qemu is not good enough. For a gaming device, games come first)

OMAP5 it is - not officially announced, but there is little to no room left for misinterpreting EDs statements in that regard.


The Pandora is no gaming only device though, there is a big portion of Pandora users that think about their Pandora more as minituarized version of a PC.

Multicore (being able to quickly pop back and forth to gamefaqs and email and pidgin and irssi and whatever game I'm working on is necessary)

Multiple cores have nothing to do with multitasking

8+GB internal memory WITH NO WRITE LIMIT (I want my expensive supergizmo to still work perfectly after 15 years of constant use)

Ed is currently on the 16GB track, I think, but "no write limit" won't happen as others have already pointed out

GPU that can handle OpenGL (not just -ES, so many games I want do not work with GLES)

Afaik the OMAP5 gfx chip won't support OpenGL in hardware, but there is a (big) chance that we get compatibility through a software layer

ability to run the machine purely from AC power with no battery inserted in case the battery is kaput.

Don't know about this, if the Pyra gets the appropriate chip for this from TI (which seems likely) it is at least possible that the Pyra will be in the same situation as the Pandora > won't work with all, but with most.

HDMI out

As far as I know, it will be either HDMI or DP, but HDMI is much more likely

full size SD slot(s)

I guess we can safely assume that at least one will be full size, and as far as I know ED is pretty much on the same track as you

full size USB slot(s) with 1.1 or 2.0 (and maybe 3.0) compatibility... needing a USB hub for the original Pandora sucked.

The OMAP5 supports 3x USB2 Host ports an one USB3 OnTheGo port, so a fullsize USB2 and a mini or micro USB3 OnTheGo is probably gonna happen, regarding compatibility: while Ed stated that its pretty much "a given", looking at the OMAP5 functional block diagram someone posted, I'm not 100% sure this is really included (only a highspeed connection to the USB2 Host is mentioned).

The same or better audio output quality of the Pandora (no other device has ever sounded so good on my headphones)

Hardware volume wheel or slider (may not be SoC related)

ED already stated that he wants to keep both.

Biggest Battery Known To Man, but I might have missed a few.

Last statement from ED was that he plans to reuse the battery the Pandora uses


All of this is (of course) subject to change

Edit: made the USB part more clear

 

[slaeshjag]

Multicore *does* help multitasking. IF you're running a game that's chewing up an entire core by itself, but not the otherone, your system will be a fair bit snappier

 

[thatgui]

Multicore *does* help multitasking. IF you're running a game that's chewing up an entire core by itself, but not the otherone, your system will be a fair bit snappier

true, IF one of your applications is not doing heavy IO work, so not something other than the cpu(s) is the bottleneck > double time

 

[slaeshjag]

Since the UI is usually already loaded when you tab out, I don't see why disk IO would be a blocker

 

[WizardStan]

Thats hard one: while Ed stated that its pretty much "a given", looking at the OMAP5 functional block diagram someone posted, I'm not 100% sure this is really included.

Full sized USB3.0 isn't very likely, the USB3.0 port on the OMAP5 is also the OTG port, so if it goes full sized then we won't have a slave port (and we almost certainly want a slave port).

 

[thatgui]

Since the UI is usually already loaded when you tab out, I don't see why disk IO would be a blocker

gottcha ! Who said it needs to be disk IO ? B) But seriously, you won are right

Thats hard one: while Ed stated that its pretty much "a given", looking at the OMAP5 functional block diagram someone posted, I'm not 100% sure this is really included.

Full sized USB3.0 isn't very likely, the USB3.0 port on the OMAP5 is also the OTG port, so if it goes full sized then we won't have a slave port (and we almost certainly want a slave port).

I was referring to the compatibility part, should have made that more clear - hope its clearer now

 

[Grench]

What stuff do you plan to install into your internal memory? Even my desktop Linux machine doesn't need more than 15GB for the stuff I need... games should stay on SD Card, so how many tools and standard applications do you need? Memory and storage are some of the most expensive parts... using 64GB would probabbly increase the end price by 60 EUR compared to 16GB...

Is there any chance to mounting the eMMC on a daughter board Odroid style?

http://com.odroid.com/sigong/blog/blog_list.php?bid=139

Then you could have a 'stock' size (16GB?) at the default price and sell upgrades to higher capacities at a profit.

Just a thought.

So - here's the solution to having an eMMC that never wears out. Much like the shoes, use one you can change for a new one when the old one(s) fail.

Any thoughts around mounting the eMMC on it's own daughter board?

Need more than 16GB? ED could (hypothetically) sell 32GB or 64GB eMMC daughter board modules to those of us who own screwdrivers and as 'upgrades' to those who don't.

eMMC wore out or failed or was simply a bad part? No need to swap the motherboard - just swap the eMMC daughterboard.

The Pyra would never permanently die due to an eMMC issue.

Any drawbacks?

 

[levi]

Expense and reliability, mainly. Double the number of boards being produced and extra connectors don't come for free, and likewise adding extra solder joints and connectors in between the eMMC module and the SoC means there are more places for the connection to go bad.

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

What stuff do you plan to install into your internal memory? Even my desktop Linux machine doesn't need more than 15GB for the stuff I need... games should stay on SD Card, so how many tools and standard applications do you need? Memory and storage are some of the most expensive parts... using 64GB would probabbly increase the end price by 60 EUR compared to 16GB...

Is there any chance to mounting the eMMC on a daughter board Odroid style?

http://com.odroid.com/sigong/blog/blog_list.php?bid=139


Then you could have a 'stock' size (16GB?) at the default price and sell upgrades to higher capacities at a profit.


Just a thought.

So - here's the solution to having an eMMC that never wears out. Much like the shoes, use one you can change for a new one when the old one(s) fail.


Any thoughts around mounting the eMMC on it's own daughter board?


Need more than 16GB? ED could (hypothetically) sell 32GB or 64GB eMMC daughter board modules to those of us who own screwdrivers and as 'upgrades' to those who don't.


eMMC wore out or failed or was simply a bad part? No need to swap the motherboard - just swap the eMMC daughterboard.


The Pyra would never permanently die due to an eMMC issue.


Any drawbacks?

ED has to wait 10 years to sell a replacement eMMC daughterboard

 

[Binky]

^ ship all units with an 8GB card, then sell 32GB cards as extras?

 

[Batou456]

What stuff do you plan to install into your internal memory? Even my desktop Linux machine doesn't need more than 15GB for the stuff I need... games should stay on SD Card, so how many tools and standard applications do you need? Memory and storage are some of the most expensive parts... using 64GB would probabbly increase the end price by 60 EUR compared to 16GB...

Is there any chance to mounting the eMMC on a daughter board Odroid style?

http://com.odroid.com/sigong/blog/blog_list.php?bid=139


Then you could have a 'stock' size (16GB?) at the default price and sell upgrades to higher capacities at a profit.


Just a thought.

So - here's the solution to having an eMMC that never wears out. Much like the shoes, use one you can change for a new one when the old one(s) fail.


Any thoughts around mounting the eMMC on it's own daughter board?


Need more than 16GB? ED could (hypothetically) sell 32GB or 64GB eMMC daughter board modules to those of us who own screwdrivers and as 'upgrades' to those who don't.


eMMC wore out or failed or was simply a bad part? No need to swap the motherboard - just swap the eMMC daughterboard.


The Pyra would never permanently die due to an eMMC issue.


Any drawbacks?

It wouldn't surprise me if it would be cheaper to have Global Components replace the rare eMMC chip on defective boards then fab separate boards in the long run.

At this lot size I really doubt you'd come out ahead by trying that.  It'd involve making compromises which should increase failure rate and cost of important components for what's really a non-issue as the eMMC shouldn't be being used in a write heavy manner.

So in short lots of drawbacks, no meaningful advantages.

 

[God Ginrai]

x86 (Don't get me wrong, I love ARM... but I want more x86 games to work and qemu is not good enough. For a gaming device, games come first)

OMAP5 it is - not officially announced, but there is little to no room left for misinterpreting EDs statements in that regard.The Pandora is no gaming only device though, there is a big portion of Pandora users that think about their Pandora more as minituarized version of a PC.

 I still think of my Pandora as being mainly a homebrew gaming device. (that is so good that I can do PC stuff as well) That being said, I see absolutely no reason that having x86 would equate to being better for games.

What stuff do you plan to install into your internal memory? Even my desktop Linux machine doesn't need more than 15GB for the stuff I need... games should stay on SD Card, so how many tools and standard applications do you need? Memory and storage are some of the most expensive parts... using 64GB would probabbly increase the end price by 60 EUR compared to 16GB...

Is there any chance to mounting the eMMC on a daughter board Odroid style?

http://com.odroid.com/sigong/blog/blog_list.php?bid=139

Then you could have a 'stock' size (16GB?) at the default price and sell upgrades to higher capacities at a profit.

Just a thought.

So - here's the solution to having an eMMC that never wears out. Much like the shoes, use one you can change for a new one when the old one(s) fail.

Any thoughts around mounting the eMMC on it's own daughter board?

Need more than 16GB? ED could (hypothetically) sell 32GB or 64GB eMMC daughter board modules to those of us who own screwdrivers and as 'upgrades' to those who don't.

eMMC wore out or failed or was simply a bad part? No need to swap the motherboard - just swap the eMMC daughterboard.

The Pyra would never permanently die due to an eMMC issue.

Any drawbacks?

 It wouldn't surprise me if it would be cheaper to have Global Components replace the rare eMMC chip on defective boards then fab separate boards in the long run.

At this lot size I really doubt you'd come out ahead by trying that.  It'd involve making compromises which should increase failure rate and cost of important components for what's really a non-issue as the eMMC shouldn't be being used in a write heavy manner.

So in short lots of drawbacks, no meaningful advantages.

Hence why I wanted microSD as our embedded OS chip. It's replaceable, and doesn't involve an expensive daughter board.

-God Ginrai

 

[TrashyMG]

Hence why I wanted microSD as our embedded OS chip. It's replaceable, and doesn't involve an expensive daughter board.

but considerable slower than NAND PoP memory or eMMC.