Ok I Tried The Whole Separate Appdata Dir Thing

[skeezix]

Dunny -- why would people have to use xfce?

I gotta say -- every day, a new forum emergency; you guys are keeping us busy I'm going to be in much-less-free-time for a month soon, I dunno how I'm going to keep up with the forum demands

jeff

 

[cosam]

Early on, a pnd could be unpacked and work in-place; I don't know if it works right now, as wasn't on my test list for the last few months.. but in theory, a pnd file that is unpacked (get the goods out of the iso) should more or less still just work (same appdata rules, etc.)

Maybe that last part could be made configurable (i.e. do/don't use appdata for unpacked directories)? The PND fans can use their PNDs and unzippers can run their stuff as preferred right from the menu.

 

[Aninhumer]

Early on, a pnd could be unpacked and work in-place; I don't know if it works right now, as wasn't on my test list for the last few months.. but in theory, a pnd file that is unpacked (get the goods out of the iso) should more or less still just work (same appdata rules, etc.)

Maybe that last part could be made configurable (i.e. do/don't use appdata for unpacked directories)? The PND fans can use their PNDs and unzippers can run their stuff as preferred right from the menu.

From what I've seen, an unpacked PND won't use a separate appdata dir at all (not sure what skeezix is saying here...)
In fact, the PND system has been designed to mean devs can just code as if it was a normal dir, and it works fine.

 

[WizardStan]

• I placed the PND file in the pandora/menu folder
• The documentation automatically appeared in Documentation in the main menu
• The game automatically appeared in the Games > Arcade
• I then downloaded the game data files and put them in the Commander Keen appdata folder

Yes, it works, and a Zip file would do the same. I doubt what I want, or what Dave wants will happen. People like things complex these days.

So you're proposing that your system would do all the same things PND does, except they're ZIP files? And instead of the PXML being appended to the end of the file, it's just a text file that is included in the zip? I don't see how that would have made anything better. In fact, since you can't random-access a file within a zip with any sort of efficiency, it would actually make things worse than a PND made with squashFS.
So if, instead of appending the PXML file, it was included in the PND filesystem itself, that would basically be the same as your ZIP solution, so I don't see what you're fussing over. Actually, if this info text file you mentioned were stored in the ZIP (or PND filesystem) it becomes read only: if you wanted to change it, you'd have to decompress the zip, change it, and then recompress it. With the appended PXML idea, a developer can simply edit it as it stands, strip it off, whatever.
So to reiterate: there were severe flaws in your ZIP file proposal which are addressed by the PND system. Which is fine, everything starts off simple until you start running into actual use cases. Then bug fixes happen, and 8 months later you're doing a code review and wondering why your simple little function has tripled in length.

 

[skeezix]

Aninhumer -- an unpacked pnd is what I call a 'directory app'; its essentially a pnd, unpacked -- ie: it has PXML, etc, and as such, when run, uses the same appdata magic (writebacks get directed to appdata directory for consistrency.) ie: When you run it, you're running it via the pnds system.

However, an app does not need to be a pnd per se at all -- it coudl just be any standard application, run from terminal or a .desktop or whatever, or it could be an unpacked pnd file run without the pnd systemn (in which case it runs like any other app, in place.)

ie:

Given Hatari.pnd, you coudl run it as a pnd
If you unpack it (pop everythign out of the iso), and run it _as a pnd_, it'll still work (in theory, I've not testred in months.)
But if you go into the unpacked directory and run ./hatari or ./runhatari.sh, it'll work like a normal linux app (of course)

jeff

 

[skeezix]

Its actually 'container' + 'container' .. currently iso or squash, plus appended stuff.

Lomng term, I've always figured we'd move to iso/squash + zip (possibly uncompressed), so that we get zip table of contents for easy pulling up multiple icons etc, but keeping iso ad the main app container (so we get permissions etc.)

If we switch to zip on the end, containing icon and PXML, it doesn't really change much; its a trivial extension of the system, which does not break existing apps.

Anyway, thats blue sky Craig wasn't really hanging out in IRC, so he doesn't know the reasoning behind a lot of decisions; theres method to the madness, it wasn't all totally random decisions

jeff

 

[mindlord]

The correct answer Jeff, is "Delegate Responsibility"...

 

[cosam]

Given Hatari.pnd, you coudl run it as a pnd
If you unpack it (pop everythign out of the iso), and run it _as a pnd_, it'll still work (in theory, I've not testred in months.)
But if you go into the unpacked directory and run ./hatari or ./runhatari.sh, it'll work like a normal linux app (of course)

I think if you could cater for both crowds relatively easily by keeping the detection/menu-populating stuff and giving the option to not use appdata for unpacked apps. I dare say it would be more POLA-compilant to make such behaviour the default.

 

[Aninhumer]

Aninhumer -- an unpacked pnd is what I call a 'directory app'; its essentially a pnd, unpacked -- ie: it has PXML, etc, and as such, when run, uses the same appdata magic (writebacks get directed to appdata directory for consistrency.) ie: When you run it, you're running it via the pnds system.

However, an app does not need to be a pnd per se at all -- it coudl just be any standard application, run from terminal or a .desktop or whatever, or it could be an unpacked pnd file run without the pnd systemn (in which case it runs like any other app, in place.)

Oh I see, you meant if you use run_pnd (or whatever it's called) on it.
I was referring to your second case, where they just run the launcher inside it, which I suspect is what people who want directories would do.

EDIT: Does that mean it detects PXML files to add to the menu as well as PND ones?

Actually, if this info text file you mentioned were stored in the ZIP (or PND filesystem) it becomes read only: if you wanted to change it, you'd have to decompress the zip, change it, and then recompress it. With the appended PXML idea, a developer can simply edit it as it stands, strip it off, whatever.

I don't think that's a very good idea, since the PXML is also stored inside as well, and I'd imagine they're expected to be consistent.
Perhaps for testing, but then, they could just use it as a directory while testing anyway, as skeezix said.

 

[WizardStan]

I don't think that's a very good idea, since the PXML is also stored inside as well,

No it's not, the PXML is appended to the end of the PND file so it can be easily edited without having to rebuild the entire PND file. I'm not sure what you're getting at.

 

[skeezix]

The correct answer Jeff, is "Delegate Responsibility"...

Hoping so, once people catch on to how things work -- theres a big gap right now, so people tend to assume the worst, not realizing all the background that went into a decision, or not knowing how things work; but yeah, I'm way too hyper engaged lately, it'll be good to get a month of limited forum time

So, who has time to do a quick pnd_run.sh change ie: this whole thing is not a big problem, it really is a one line change

jeff

 

[Pleng]

Pleng.. the goal was single file;

So was my idea...

 

[Dunny]

Dunny -- why would people have to use xfce?

No offense, Jeff - but it seems (from forum comments) that the minimenu is moving further and further away from the stripped-down philosophy that it was originally intended to be. Not having use it (grumble), I can only go on what information the forums are giving me. And it seems that a lot of apps are going to rely on using xfce. Things like a PND manager - if we have to use PND files, I'd like a nice little app that integrates into the minimenu without having to startx to use it. Ideally, I'd like stuff like this to be done on my desktop machine rather than the Pandora, which will be used exclusively to run games!

I believe there was some talk about having xfce apps on the minimenu, but that to me defeats the purpose of having a minimenu. I'm with DaveC on a minimalist system for just getting stuff running without the bloat that a desktop WM brings.

The one thing that I did notice that makes me sit up and pay attention is the suggestion that we have an appdata folder inside the PND. I know that removing the PND would also remove the stored files that the user has added, but that's not an issue for me. If I want to uninstall a game, I want the savegames and ROMs removed too, and doing that with one delete operation is attractive. Upgrading a PND shouldn't be an issue with a proper PND manager either - it just manages the files inside the PND, rather than deleting it and installing a new one.

Just my 2 penn'orth.

D.

 

[cosam]

I don't think that's a very good idea, since the PXML is also stored inside as well,

No it's not, the PXML is appended to the end of the PND file so it can be easily edited without having to rebuild the entire PND file. I'm not sure what you're getting at.

No, it's a requirement of the format that the PXML exist in the root of the ISO too.

http://pandorawiki.org/Libpnd_hub#File_format_-_.pnd_files

 

[Aninhumer]

No it's not, the PXML is appended to the end of the PND file so it can be easily edited without having to rebuild the entire PND file. I'm not sure what you're getting at.

The PXML is stored inside the iso filesystem as well as being appended, or at least it has been in all of the PNDs I've mounted.
I don't know whether it would actually matter if it wasn't there, but it is. EDIT: Seems like it does.
AFAIK it's only appended for quick access to the info and image, not to allow editing.

 

[mindlord]

... without having to startx to use it.

X is always running, even when you use minimenu. Minimenu is a just a program that runs full screen on top of a 'Window Manager'-less X session, and when you pick a program that requires X, Minimenu exits gracefully giving the 'Window Manager'-less X session to the new app.

When switching from Minimenu to XFCE, all you're doing is exiting Minimenu and continuing to load the rest of a full XFCE session. When you switch back to Minimenu, XFCE closes just enough of itself to leave an empty X session behind, and Minimenu reloads.

There's a very good reason to always have and X session open, it allows games to take advantage of X11's accelerated SGX video driver.

Edit: stray "programs"

 

[ste_167]

I really can't see the problem with the system, it works great. A right-click option to display the documentation and the appdata folder name would be nice addition, but major changes certainly aren't needed.

I'm not sure I'd go with ZIP, the idea of the pnd is to have a single file. Why do you need to view/extract the data structure within it?

 

[zacaj]

Couldnt it just scan to see if the pnd related to an appdata exists, and if it doesnt, ask(once) if it should be removed? Or, have a right click option to uninstal pnds, that would remove+unmount the pnd, and ask if you want the appdata removed?

 

[PokeParadox]

I really can't see the problem with the system, it works great. A right-click option to display the documentation and the appdata folder name would be nice addition, but major changes certainly aren't needed.

I'm not sure I'd go with ZIP, the idea of the pnd is to have a single file. Why do you need to view/extract the data structure within it?

No need for zip... squashfs does a commendable job of reducing the filesize of a PND...

 

[ste_167]

I really can't see the problem with the system, it works great. A right-click option to display the documentation and the appdata folder name would be nice addition, but major changes certainly aren't needed.

I'm not sure I'd go with ZIP, the idea of the pnd is to have a single file. Why do you need to view/extract the data structure within it?

No need for zip... squashfs does a commendable job of reducing the filesize of a PND...

The zip idea was touted as option so that you could view the files within it, rather than for reasons of compression.

btw, pandora panic is superb!

Or, have a right click option to uninstal pnds

Nice idea