New Pyra pre-order - General questions


pyrat

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Yet you want to eliminate a use case that most of the population has in netflix, Hulu, music.

In any case Netflix should work with chrome or Firefox. The resolution might be limited to lower without widevine.
DRM is incompatible with freedom. Computers don't work this way. Either you have control of your computer or someone else has.
The only way to ensure that a computer displays a movie that you cannot copy (the purpose of DRM) is that you don't control the computer.
If you're talking PCs there's a whole operating system in there to make sure DRM works while making you believe you've installed your software
of choice, but your software of choice only works as long as ME and friends want it to. They'll let you install more or less software and to do more
or less things as long as they're not interested in those things. And of course they're not after you personally, they're interested in things that
work the same against you as against all other consumers.

ME, PSP, tivoization and so on have more nasty applicactions, but DRM is the consumer candy with which they'll forcing it everywhere and so
it's the most dangerous in a social engineering sense. Next they'll require a certain OS and middleware to be able to bank online (PSD2 is partway
there), interact with your government or anything they like.

And then there's the cat and mouse game of broken DRM and sploits... online content without DRM (legal or not) modulates how much the DRM lobby
can pull their strings before consumers quit their content, but the DRM lobby knows how to play that.

I don't mind the Pyra playing DRM sometimes due to some sploit that breaks some DRM. I dont' like that, I won't use it on purpose, but I don't find it so
terrible. Its only defect is that it spreads the appreciation of (broken) DRMed content, which can be indirectly bad, in the dependence of society
on dishonest content providers.
But I don't call that DRM working on the Pyra. (that'd be the Pyra working against DRM).

Additionally there is a kodi plugin that I use for Netflix on my raspberry pi that works fine but is limited to 640p that uses software decoding and widevine from a chromebook image.
There's your bait. Have a nice meal. I already know most people here don't think like me.
 

Grench

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Putting aside all the freedom arguments, etc.

Netflix is unlikely to work unless we can get a -full- build of the Chrome browser. Chromium works for normal browsing, but Netflix requires the DRM that is only present in the Chrome browser to work. However, if someone is able to make the full X86 Chrome browser run inside of Box86, that would theoretically work.

I am unfamiliar with trying to use Netflix in FireFox. Last I knew, the only way to watch Netflix in Linux on an X86 was through Google Chrome (not Chromium).

I can verify that Netflix works in Google Chrome for X86 Linux on Debian and Kubuntu.
 

pyrat

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Putting aside all the freedom arguments, etc.
As it was so easy...

Netflix is unlikely to work unless we can get a -full- build of the Chrome browser. Chromium works for normal browsing, but Netflix requires the DRM that is only present in the Chrome browser to work. However, if someone is able to make the full X86 Chrome browser run inside of Box86, that would theoretically work.
That shouldn't work. I don't know what DRM Netflix uses currently. I don't care, They can change that tomorrow. Or in two months.
If you can make it work in a Box86 then that's broken DRM. You can have the virtual screen in that virtual machine save a 100% quality version of the content.
"Proper" DRM consists in hardware that won't boot unsigned software or will boot it in an "unsafe world" that is some kind of virtual machine for user software.
Then the Netflix server would serve encrypted content that can only be unencrypted by software that can prove that the right signed software has enough control of the display hardware as not to leak the cleartext content.
The processor would check the signatures of bootloader, OS, browser and codecs (not really, each one would check the next one's signature), and iff they are all signed by something turstworthy (i.e. trusted by Netflix), then it would let
it run (Protected Media Path). Or alternatively, the "secure world" would sign a "remote attestation" certificate ensuring the Netflix server can give the decryption key to the "secure world". If you try to access the content from the "unsafe world" you won't become the key to decrypt it.
If you can break that, then it's not real DRM. If you can't it's no longer your machine. If you can today you may not be able tomorrow, so I wouldn't advertise Netflix working. because Netflix is the only free entity in a DRM scheme,
free to change their encryption and key distribution protocols tomorrow, to make it stop working for you, because they think they have enough customers to afford breaking things for those using unsactioned hardware.
CBS did and undid it, HBO Max did it yestermonth and Netflix might do it tomorrow.

I am unfamiliar with trying to use Netflix in FireFox. Last I knew, the only way to watch Netflix in Linux on an X86 was through Google Chrome (not Chromium).

I can verify that Netflix works in Google Chrome for X86 Linux on Debian and Kubuntu.
Today. I don't know how much of the ME machinery that X86 uses. I don't know how much it will need tomorrow. I don't need to know it.
There's no point in trying it with Chromium instead of Chrome, because either that works with some fixed version of Chromium you can't change (no longer effectively free) or you can change it to workaround DRM.

You are right it's not really a freedom argument. Proprietary software not accepted by the content provider would also be unable to decrypt the content. So a hacked Chrome should also not work with Netflix.
What software the content provider accepts it's a policy that adapts to the current market. If they get enough money with schemes that don't prevent but just make more cumbersome some uses, they
may decide that it is best to save the expense, and let the "pirates" get addicted to their content until the situation is right to turn their knob further.

It's not a matter of what happens now. It's incompatible goals. DRM can't be had in freedom. It's either not free or not really DRMed.
 
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pyrat

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the Pyra community supports all endeavors - open source, proprietary, freeware, etc. don't confuse your use case with all others'.
I'm sorry not to be able to express myself clearer, but no hardware can support all endeavours.
 

daveshah

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What's important about the Pyra, imo, is that there is no 'DRM' in the hardware, bootloader or kernel.

Even if some userspace program does have some pathetic attempt at DRM, in general there's nothing stopping you from writing a kernel driver that captures and saves the current framebuffer or data going into the audio codec. Or, in theory, running the entire offending program in a VM (subject to getting KVM working).
 

HelenF

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pyrat has a point that even if Netflix works now, you can't count on it continuing to work (and unlike the ordinary breaks in compatibility which happen with online services from time to time, DRM-related changes may be fundamentally unfixable).
 

pyrat

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What's important about the Pyra, imo, is that there is no 'DRM' in the hardware, bootloader or kernel.
:) That's great, just like I hoped.

Even if some userspace program does have some pathetic attempt at DRM, in general there's nothing stopping you from writing a kernel driver that captures and saves the current framebuffer or data going into the audio codec. Or, in theory, running the entire offending program in a VM (subject to getting KVM working).
...except the content provider servers which, in theory and in practice, can refuse to work with a browser/OS/device that they don't like, because there's nothing stopping them to throw a 403 at you when they don't get a signed data structure they want, which you can't sign because fortunately you don't have any private key that they like, in some locked down DRM in the hardware, bootloader or kernel, because fortunately you don't have any DRM there. But, yes, if the content provider isn't so picky, and the server DRM attempt is pathetic enough to match the pathetic userspace program, then you get to see their content and good luck for you.
[you is not you, it's the hypothetical user, of course]
 

Eight Bit

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I hope Spotify's Linux desktop program will work with Box86, I really like the idea of being able to listen on the Pyra.
I guess it will work fine web based in Chromium. It does on my Pinebook but I needed to start it in a docker image of a 32 bit OS to run it.
That won't be necessary on a Pyra :)
 

Grench

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Yes, I get the whole, "FREEDOM!," argument. You can scream about it all you want.

But - content producers and owners also have the right to limit unauthorized usage of and to try to make money off of the content that they invested in creating.

There is a balance to be maintained between the two.

The original poster's question, "How well do you think it will be possible to use mainstream services like netflix, watch national TV, youtube, spotify?" was not asking for how we felt about DRM. It was asking if the Pyra is or might be capable of accessing those sources, of which Netflix in particular has some relatively strong DRM.

So, back to the original poster's questions:
Netflix - not likely to work unless we can get "real Google Chrome" browser to work somehow. Even then it might not.
Broadcast TV - would require an ATSC (US - something else if Europe) tuner dongle AND the software to control the dongle and read the signal and convert it to the screen. Might happen?
Youtube - works(ish) now, but slow and jerky, mostly because H.264 isn't working yet. There may be hope for this, but it will take the time of an interested developer.
Spotify - no idea.
 

MTPDA

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Putting aside all the freedom arguments, etc.

Netflix is unlikely to work unless we can get a -full- build of the Chrome browser. Chromium works for normal browsing, but Netflix requires the DRM that is only present in the Chrome browser to work. However, if someone is able to make the full X86 Chrome browser run inside of Box86, that would theoretically work.

I am unfamiliar with trying to use Netflix in FireFox. Last I knew, the only way to watch Netflix in Linux on an X86 was through Google Chrome (not Chromium).

I can verify that Netflix works in Google Chrome for X86 Linux on Debian and Kubuntu.
AFAIK it started working in release 68 or so when they included the widevine plugin by default (you can disable it but there's no uninstall button) it works fine on my x86-64 tablet using firefox 80.0
*Edit* The tablet is running Ubuntu 20.04.1
 

pyrat

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Yes, I get the whole, "FREEDOM!," argument. You can scream about it all you want.
I didn't mean to scream. Sorry if I came across so.

But - content producers and owners also have the right to limit unauthorized usage of and to try to make money off of the content that they invested in creating.
I didn't argue against this. I have my opinion on their rights and the balance with other rights.
But I didn't claim anything about it. I only said that the purpose (legitimate or not) of DRM is incompatible with a completely user controlled device.
That comes from the definition of DRM, independently of whether you think DRM is good or bad or whether you think freedom or user control is good or bad.
I'm not saying whether you should have your cake or eat it, just that you can't have it and eat it too (except when I said I don't want DRM, but that was just my opinion).

There is a balance to be maintained between the two.
Or many possible balances. I don't think that owning a device without strong DRM cause any damage to rightholders.
You just won't access content with strong DRM on such a device. No rightholder has the right for everyone to have to access their content from all devices.

The original poster's question, "How well do you think it will be possible to use mainstream services like netflix, watch national TV, youtube, spotify?" was not asking for how we felt about DRM. It was asking if the Pyra is or might be capable of accessing those sources, of which Netflix in particular has some relatively strong DRM.
Indeed. I just tried to answer the question and justify the reason.

So, back to the original poster's questions:
Netflix - not likely to work unless we can get "real Google Chrome" browser to work somehow. Even then it might not.
Correct (as far as I know).

Broadcast TV - would require an ATSC (US - something else if Europe) tuner dongle AND the software to control the dongle and read the signal and convert it to the screen. Might happen?
Your answer is right to the literal question. But I understood the question as the ability to access streaming content through internet from the websites of the same TV stations that also broadcast through air.
But I can't answer that because it depends on how each station does it. In my experience they don't generally use DRM (just geoblocking, previously sometimes flash or so), so it could work.
But I don't know, maybe I just tend to ignore the ones that don't work for me so I don't have any survey.

Youtube - works(ish) now, but slow and jerky, mostly because H.264 isn't working yet. There may be hope for this, but it will take the time of an interested developer.
Ok. I thought it worked better.

Spotify - no idea.
I also don't know. I'll take @Eight Bit answer for good.
 

Askarus

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DRM is incompatible with freedom. Computers don't work this way. Either you have control of your computer or someone else has.
I support that and I do not understand that people don't complain that basically all smartphones are locked.
How can it be that you buy devices where you don't even have admin/root rights.
I don't want to spend like 1000€ for a device I won't even own completely at the end.
 

Swordfish II

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pyrat has a point that even if Netflix works now, you can't count on it continuing to work
I mean with widevine extracted from a chromebook image and SW decoding, it has worked for 4 years on my pi.

Only breaking chrome images would prevent it.

And literally as long as there is a kodi build on the Pyra, it WILL work.

Here is the addon github

Seems like there is FREEDOM! There and use cases met.
 
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Mundgeirr

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Thank you again for your responses again, after checking more stuff about debian/linux I can see a lot of interesting packages I'd love to use. It is also very interesting to read your discussions about DRM, I am also very dissapointed with the current mainstream technological industry, that was one of the reasons I pre-ordered a Pyra (to have an upgradeable computer/phone with replazable batteries). I also work in research and companies talk now about green transition, circular economy and all that bullshit, and then in the end they just want to keep earning and grow as before, just having a better corporate image and not really promoting less consumption, more reparation etc. * anti-capitalist mode = off *

1. I'm pretty sure keyboard customization/switching will be fine.

2. You'll be able to use Google Drive on the website, but I guess you're asking about automatic file sync between Pyra and Windows?

3. Some software won't work, e.g. looks like Pycharm isn't open-source and they don't provide an ARM version.
Thanks! And yes, regarding 2 I meant automatic sync, but it is not vital having sd cards/usb memories.

How the fuck do you even do that? The keyboard layout geeks are 90% linux users and always cry in agony when that one single windows user has problems again.
Hahah it's pretty simple to create your own windows keyboard using Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator, just add the characters you want to assign to each key and that's it. I'm bad with computers and have little patience, but I am not that terrible, after all I use them every day :)

Yes, I get the whole, "FREEDOM!," argument. You can scream about it all you want.

But - content producers and owners also have the right to limit unauthorized usage of and to try to make money off of the content that they invested in creating.

There is a balance to be maintained between the two.

The original poster's question, "How well do you think it will be possible to use mainstream services like netflix, watch national TV, youtube, spotify?" was not asking for how we felt about DRM. It was asking if the Pyra is or might be capable of accessing those sources, of which Netflix in particular has some relatively strong DRM.

So, back to the original poster's questions:
Netflix - not likely to work unless we can get "real Google Chrome" browser to work somehow. Even then it might not.
Broadcast TV - would require an ATSC (US - something else if Europe) tuner dongle AND the software to control the dongle and read the signal and convert it to the screen. Might happen?
Youtube - works(ish) now, but slow and jerky, mostly because H.264 isn't working yet. There may be hope for this, but it will take the time of an interested developer.
Spotify - no idea.
Regarding TV I referred more to accessing their website and watch stuff there (example Norwegian public TV: https://tv.nrk.no/). I actually almost never watch TV, but from time to time I like to watch some series to practise languages and to watch interesting documentaries, so it would be great to just connect the Pyra to a TV or screen and enjoy those :)
 
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