I'm Worried About The Dpad Placement

[zaffercharles]

Hi. I got the actual size card print a couple of days ago (thank you guys) and I have been scrutinising it..

and the Dpad seems a little too close to the edge of the machine to be comfortable.
I have to squash my thumb in to reach the middle of it, even when I'm just resting my thumb on the middle. I kept this up for about 3 mins moving it around as if I was using it, and got pretty good thumbache from it considering what a short time that actually is.

As I and no doubt many others were thrilled at getting a proper Dpad it is a worry. The buttons on the face aren't so much of a problem because even though they are a bit small and close you can use the top of your thumb for the A,Y- and the knuckle area for X and B. The analogues are perfect placement too I feel, but they could even go inwards a tiny bit more.

What I hope is one of two things happen- either shift the controls in as much as possible to gain better comfort using the Dpad, or just add a few more mm to the width of the unit. making it wider would be much better or maybe angled like the GP32. If anyone else has one of these or has made a mock up, let me know what you think, because I'm not trying to scaremonger or be negative for the sake of it here I promise you- the pad doesn't seem comfortable enough for medium term use let alone long use as it is. I don't have large hands there's just not enough to hold on to on the left side as I see it. This would be a serious letdown and annoyance considering where this was born from and why.

If it was a bit wider we'd still get it in a trouser pocket, it would allow greater comfort of use and perhaps add room for larger face buttons, or more comfortably spaced, and maybe another keyboard function or two. But the Dpad alone is worth fixing it for.

Again, this isn't about what I want it's more about what's best for everyone as I see it. Go on and try moving your thumb around on it for a few minutes and see if you feel the same.

 

[Eolair]

Actually, I'm also a bit concerned about this. On the GP2X I always found that the buttons were too close to the edge of the unit.

To use the B button meant I had to squash my thumb against my hand in an uncomfortable position and pretty soon it would start to hurt. The only way I could avoid this was to move my hands away from the unit and just hold it with my fingers. That wasn't very comfortable either though.

I fear the d pad and buttons on the pandora is going to cause a similar problem if they are that close to the edge. Not everyone has the hands of a child you know... <_<

 

[kfuse]

I don't think it looks that bad. I don't have kiddy hands either but still I think craig and co. have worked around that issue.

but still for clarity with there was physical of image of someone holding but that won't be for a while.

 

[zaffercharles]

The thing is, you could hold it lower down to make the discomfort less, but in the process you lose the reach for the shoulder buttons and that's far from ideal- not only that but it is still slightly uncomfortable from the minute you start to hold it.

What you say about the buttons still apply I think, the small form factor is nice but I would never want to sacrifice gaming ability for the sake of cramming it into a pocket

Again, to reach the left side of the Dpad I have to twist my hand outwards and crunch my thumb into my index finger. It's very uncomfortable. When I said that the buttons weren't so bad, you really don't want to be using B much I can tell you!

Either find a different place for the start/select/menu buttons and use the space to spread the controls, or make it wider please. I know I bored everybody with my noble attempt of convincing you that 2 shoulders acting as 4 with overhang for grip and table use was an excellent idea, but this is something quite different to that.

Without comfort in use, it will be no better than any other handheld device that you can run emus on because you'll never want to use it for long. And I've never owned anything like that so far. I hope this doesn't come so close to being what I have dreamed of for about 6 years and fall at the last hurdle. Adding controllers just misses the point I just want to use it out and about, I can use my super PC at home anyway.

I could add a pic of me holding it if anyone would like, and you can see exactly how it is.

 

[prairiefire]

sure.. lets see what you're talking about

 

[zaffercharles]

I shall get to it then

By the way, I feel like somewhere along the line it has turned from a gaming machine with laptop functionality into something more along the lines of 50-50, and it can't be perfect at either. All I hope for is that it is comfortable, I still want to use it in every type of way it can be used.

I don't think in its present size that any fix is ideal I would suggest taking the controls off the face and making a large keyboard cover it- and selling with a clip over gaming control device that is generously spaced, but then you would have to choose one or the other at any given time plus it's just another part to carry around with you. Not a good thing I know. All the ideas I have read have some kind of drawback and although this design may be the best solution for everything, can you really call it that if you are put off of playing it because of hand cramps?

Anyway I'll get on with trying to create a few pictures.

 

[zaffercharles]

Here we are, the cam battery ran out before I got the most ideal pics :angry:

it was hard to hold the cam steady while holding the card. It really is very small, isn't it?

I wouldn't mind that at all if it felt better in your hands though. Making it wider would spoil the look of the LCD making it seem smaller, but that's a better compromise than squashing up the controls. Either that or just allow the bottom unit to be wider than the top and have it settle into the bottom half somehow. Here:

 

[prairiefire]

Here we are, the cam battery ran out before I got the most ideal pics :angry:

it was hard to hold the cam steady while holding the card. It really is very small, isn't it?

I wouldn't mind that at all if it felt better in your hands though. Making it wider would spoil the look of the LCD making it seem smaller, but that's a better compromise than squashing up the controls. Either that or just allow the bottom unit to be wider than the top and have it settle into the bottom half somehow. Here:




i see what you're trying to do there by positioning your hands as if it was thicker, but really to do it justice, you should make it the right thickness rather than just imagining how it would feel if it were thicker. If you're going to do a proper test, then you need to do it...well... properly.

 

[zaffercharles]

Ok, so I haven't convinced you But thickness also has no bearing on the fact that there is about.. just getting my ruler out.. 8mm of space between the left side of the unit and the start of the Dpad. Seems either 7 or 8mm the other side with the buttons. You can see from the pic with the analogue used that that is a comfortable position, and the Dpad and buttons are looking more cramped in the pics by comparison if you think of it that way.

All it needs is a aesthetic DS fat solution, just give it say another 1.2 ins width split to 0.6 a side, to give something to hold on to and sort the comfort out.

Or sell it with a free strip of Blu-Tack so you can mod the grip yourself, I guess it's not quite out of the niche market still judging on the lack of replies

 

[Eolair]

Thanks for the heads up. From the pictures it looks like size and positioning of the controls are pretty much molded exactly after the gp2x's. Not exactly ideal for my hands at least. I can't use the X or B buttons for any length of time without putting severe strain on the large thumb muscle (it forces the thumb too close to the hand).

It would have been so much better if the dpad and buttons had been at least 15mm further in from the sides. Unfortunately I don't think it's possible with the chosen design. A couple of mm maybe... but not enough to make any difference.

Maybe some kind of add on could be released later that enlarges the shell for us that value ergonomics over smallest size possible.

 

[Sphinxter]

Paper models don't feel very well, better to take a block of wood or wax and cut it to size.

 

[Yrx]

prairiefire made that nice mock-up with the actual thickness, so I think he'd be a good judge of if it's comfortable. Just so long as CraigIX etc look at it extensively, I'll be satisfied.

 

[zaffercharles]

But it's more a matter of how close to the edge the controls are than thickness, you'll still have to crunch your hand up to both hold on to the unit properly and reach the left control.
I understand what you are saying it isn't the best way to judge from a flat piece of cardboard, but at the same time that makes no difference to how comfortable it is to hold and use the pad, it was mentioned that sometimes you want to hold the '2X with just your fingers due to strain because of the controls are too close to the sides- well it seems that they still will be to me.
And maybe someone who has either this or a better mock up can reply here, after pretending on it for about 3 mins.. if nothing else, I'd like to see the Dpad and left stick switched because I'll be using a lot more Dpad in a comfortable position than the analogues. Imagine that, we all end up using the stick instead and lose precision because of it? We're back to GP2X style!

 

[Yrx]

Yeah, I know what you're getting at. It wouldn't be a bad idea to add a little buffer zone to the plastic, just for a grip. I'll leave that judgement to the designers, though. Obviously, I wouldn't be this completely trusting if it were just anyone, but they have had to deal with bad design choices themselves.

Everyone keeps comparing this to the DS Lite, and I actually haven't really played on one too much. The original DS wasn't too bad to hold, though.

 

[prairiefire]

prairiefire made that nice mock-up with the actual thickness, so I think he'd be a good judge of if it's comfortable. Just so long as CraigIX etc look at it extensively, I'll be satisfied.

sure, but everyone's hands are different. That's the key word here, which means that some people will never find this thing comfortable. Not only are people's hands different, their tastes are different. It may be comfortable for me, just like the gp2x is comfortable for me too.

*back to main argument*

Basically there has to be compromise because building the perfect console for one person will leave many others put off. The nice thing about this design is it allows for smaller hands to reach the analog nubs and still be able to use the dpad and action buttons easily. You can also reach the centre buttons (start/select/menu) with minimal movement of your palms to reach. If this were wider, sure you would be able to move the dpad and buttons further toward the centre, but at the expense of making the analog nubs further away for someone with smaller hands, and making the centre buttons unreachable.

There are a lot of buttons/keys/features on this surface and I think MWeston did a pretty good job in not only making the spacing even (and arguably the most aesthetic with all those buttons) but still compromising that most people will be able to easily reach all the buttons, etc.

As others have mentioned before, there's more to it than just moving a button. Lets assume (because it's probably true) that to move the dpad over without altering the size of the case, you affect the layout of the PCB. You also affect the molds for injection molding. All of this takes time and money.

In the end, try making a mockup for yourself. You have the cutout so the rest should be easy. Cardboard from a regular moving box is perfect if you have three layers for the base and two for the top. Try it with thickness and then while you're doing it, imagine that you're MWeston and that you have to please everyone and alter the design. What would you do? Keep in mind it has to be perfect for people with small and large hands, portable (i.e. you'll want everyone to be able to put this in their pockets), fit all the keys/buttons on it. Keep it simple because that will save your ass since every project is bound to have unforseen issues down the road. Keep it inexpensive to build so that you can sell it for as low as possible, etc. etc. It's pretty much a losing cause at this point.

@MWeston. Awesome job. As a mechanical engineer who deals day in, day out, with fitting electronics in tight places - you're all right with me

 

[Yrx]

Well, just as long as they do what they can. Saying it's impossible to please everyone seems a little out there, though, at least just to make it comfortable. I mean, look at the Dual Shock controller. It's certainly not my favorite, but it gets the job done. I don't know anyone that would say the Dual Shock is a truly uncomfortable controller.

But like I said, just so long as they take it all into consideration, I'm sure it'll end up alright.

 

[MWeston]

In the latest revision, the dpad circle is 6.5mm from the left edge (1mm in further than the print I think). The GP2X is 4mm from the edge. The DS lite is 6mm and the PSP (at the largest part of the curve with the bulge of the silver trim) is 7.5mm.

Pandora is designed to be as close to these setups as possible. I think it feels very nice with the thickness of the base accounted for (~16mm). The distances from the side and the separation between game controls and shoulder buttons was all based on comparing them to other handhelds and even some console controllers.

Please tell me more about your comparisons between this mockup and any other handheld you own. I think that if I was mashing my thumb into a piece of paper for three solid minutes, I would be a bit sore too! Pressing raised, spring buttons will feel different than mashing a piece of cardboard as well.

I'd like to avoid moving the analog nubs in since there is a lot of circuitry in the way and some people already think they are too hard to reach, but they really aren't.

 

[zaffercharles]

In the latest revision, the dpad circle is 6.5mm from the left edge (1mm in further than the print I think). The GP2X is 4mm from the edge. The DS lite is 6mm and the PSP (at the largest part of the curve with the bulge of the silver trim) is 7.5mm.

Pandora is designed to be as close to these setups as possible. I think it feels very nice with the thickness of the base accounted for (~16mm). The distances from the side and the separation between game controls and shoulder buttons was all based on comparing them to other handhelds and even some console controllers.

Please tell me more about your comparisons between this mockup and any other handheld you own. I think that if I was mashing my thumb into a piece of paper for three solid minutes, I would be a bit sore too! Pressing raised, spring buttons will feel different than mashing a piece of cardboard as well.

I'd like to avoid moving the analog nubs in since there is a lot of circuitry in the way and some people already think they are too hard to reach, but they really aren't.

lol to what you said about mashing the cardboard!
You have eased my mind about this already. But as for the analogues, they are very comfortable I can see that, I think that no actual movement of the controls or innards are neccesary. Just a little more width to the lower unit shell would make it more comfortable to hold on to and still people with smaller hands than I could get to the sticks. But thanks again for your insight, and well, it wont put me off buying, I really want this even if it did end up a little uncomfortable to play on after 20-30 mins.. it can do so much that it will still be worth it to me.

I've used a PSP for a day, sold it. DS- well I've used one but not with the Dpad much, so I admit that you know much better than I and if you say it's quite comfortable in reality then I will take your word for it

I think I'll have another go at 'mashing the cardboard' in anticipation that's going to be my pet name for using Pandora now I can see it

 

[prairiefire]

Well, just as long as they do what they can.

I wish everyone was as sensible as this.

QUOTE

But like I said, just so long as they take it all into consideration, I'm sure it'll end up alright.


agreed.

I think I'll have another go at 'mashing the cardboard' in anticipation

haha... and I will do the same!

 

[DeadlyDad]

I've been reading and analyzing this whole issue of gamepad ergonomics, and I have a few observations and conclusions that might be of use to Craig&Co. (I would use their company name, but, AFAIK, they haven't given it. <HINT><HINT><HINT>)

The original NES controller worked very well, no matter how large your hands were. OTOH, my son's GBA is pretty awkward to use for my big mitts. At least, until I propped it on the table with my pinkies on top of the bottom, at which point it became much easier to use.

Why? Simple: F=MA (i.e. force equals mass times acceleration) The GBA has shoulder buttons, while NES controller doesn't.

"WTH does that have to do with anything", you say? Here's what: If you play a GBA game without using the shoulder buttons, it feels totally comfortable, mostly because the force of your thumbs pushing down on the buttons on top is transmitted straight through the bottom of the unit and into your supporting fingers. No matter how frantic your button mashing is, it won't move the unit much at all because you have force directly opposing it. If you press a shoulder button on the rear of the unit, however, there is nothing (usually) on the front to brace against the force, and it is only the friction between your other fingers & thumb and the top & bottom of the case that keep the unit from rotating away from your push. Modern console controllers have helped with this problem some by placing a grip in each hand, so that your unused fingers can hold the controller in place. This was the idea behind my removable controller concept. Unfortunately, such grips, while they would make playing a lot more comfortable, wouldn't really fit in your pocket very well.

So what can we do? Well, one option is to move them to the top of the unit with the other buttons, but that would make things even more cramped.

They could also be moved to the bottom of the unit, behind a sliding door. That would not only keep all forces up & down, but would keep them out of the way of the hinge. Unfortunately, the only 'down' force to oppose them would be your thumbs, which should only be pressing down when you want them to push buttons. Awkward

Personally, considering how few emulators actually use the shoulder buttons, I would just have the six standard buttons on top, then have something like this, only with buttons & trigger(s), for when you want extra buttons, grips, and battery life in a unit that just clips to the bottom of the Pandora and plugs into a USB port. To fit all hand sizes better, I would have a rack and pinion width adjuster. Having the buttons down under the unit would make them more comfortable to use, as well.

Basically, you would have the best of both worlds: a slim main unit that fits in your pocket better and doesn't cost as much, and a more ergonomic combo that offers more buttons, better grip, and longer playing time.