Holy Crap! Kudos To You All!

[DJWillis]

All I'm trying to say is that it states the difference between the abis, (and yes, a very good read), and once read it's clear that current debian arm will not run on any armel device such as the pandora rendering that package repository moot. True none of this really matters, was just pointing out the fallacy of using arm packages.

So we agree then . I think I have always stated that I would expect and look to make it an EABI solution (that said, I guess I have not been overt about any involvement until recently).

Taking apps from an ARMEL repository is another question all together .

I am not going to chuck in comments about adding OABI binary compatibility to an EABI kernel with a hack as I think it is very evil anyway so that will not be an option .

 

[Karel Jansens]

Reading DJWillis's remark ("Quite how this will work with removable SD's/NAND etc. ") made me wonder if it would not be possible to use this as a Pandora's strong point: Put a very basic kernel into the bowels of the thing and the rest on SD card. You could have one card set up as the games machine and another as a generic Linux PDA/UMPC/MID/whatever-buzzword.

If the different images could be made to fit in relatively small cards (512 MB or 1 GB), it wouldn't break the bank for a user to keep images on separate cards, or s/he could splash out for a big one and put all images on different partitions.

This way games developers wouldn't have to worry about esoteric Linux configurations (all games would only run on the games image) and "generic" developers wouldn't have to deal with a "weird" games machine.

Does this make any sense whatsoever?

 

[Sphinxter]

This thing needs to hide it's linuxness as much as possible!!!!!! Or it won't sell!

This needs to be made SO clear straight away. The market for geeks to buy 'hardcore' linux devices will be too small for Craig to sell this for a profit (which we all want!) By all means the linux-heads can hack and play to their hearts content, but the rest of us just want to have as easy an experience as possible.

I am speaking with the experience of having recently bought an eee pc and an n800. Both run linux. The nokia n800 had a great application manager that automatically searched for new apps, with a description and the option to download. It was so easy. Of course, the option to add repos was there, and it was better if you did! But you didn't have to-you still got a lot of cool free stuff, that just installed itself seemlessly onto the device!

The eee pc under linux (I have now put XP on it, much better) is also great for only the basic things. Under what they call easy mode the core apps that were already installed can be easily updated. But as soon as you want to put something new onto it, it is really hard for a complete linux newbie. It took me days to understand the basics enough for me just to get VLC on there, and sopcast I just couldn't manage. And when I read and asked for help on the excellent forums eeeuser, the language that people used to write me help was still above me. It is all so new. Even simple thins, like press this key to do this weren't mentioned, cos the linux experts just KNEW. But the newbies not! DO you see what I mean? So XP, it had to be!

I know lots of you will just say 'Linux is easy' and I am sure for you it is! But Craig needs to mass sell this and people are scared of linux, with good reason! Most of us here are geeks, but we must realise that techie terms will scare off lots!

I know this has been said, but lots of us don't realise how important it is for people to believe that when they buy this, they will just be able to use it! Not fight with it. I read the other day that itunes, after opening up the sdk for the iphone (?) will be giving out the apps that people write for free via itunes. Whatever you think about itunes, this could be a fantastic thin-people can just visit itunes from their iphones, browse to a new app and download it straight onto their iphones! Simple and quick! If people can just do this, and know that it will be this easy before they buy then lots of people will buy this...

Sorry for my rant, but the post by the luna girl scared me. Why should someone HAVE TO learn linux when they buy this? I really, really don't want to have to learn Linux. Life is too short. I just wanna play!

It'll probably take about the same amount of Linux as you need to learn to use the GP2X so relax, you can remain just as blissfully ignorant as you want to be. You will no doubt be limited to only clicking on whatever more knowledgeable people willing to learn have arranged for you, maybe that's enough, most of us don't care much for limits.

 

[Sphinxter]

All I'm trying to say is that it states the difference between the abis, (and yes, a very good read), and once read it's clear that current debian arm will not run on any armel device such as the pandora rendering that package repository moot. True none of this really matters, was just pointing out the fallacy of using arm packages.

So we agree then . I think I have always stated that I would expect and look to make it an EABI solution (that said, I guess I have not been overt about any involvement until recently).

Taking apps from an ARMEL repository is another question all together .

I am not going to chuck in comments about adding OABI binary compatibility to an EABI kernel with a hack as I think it is very evil anyway so that will not be an option .


Excellent, all on the same page and shaping up very, very nicely. I predict you will wind up building your own distro and a package repository specific to the device. A lot of work but critical to controlling and idiot proofing the end user experience and possibly the key to overall success, got to close that loop. b-)

 

[lubidog]

This thing needs to hide it's linuxness as much as possible!!!!!! Or it won't sell!

This needs to be made SO clear straight away. The market for geeks to buy 'hardcore' linux devices will be too small for Craig to sell this for a profit (which we all want!) By all means the linux-heads can hack and play to their hearts content, but the rest of us just want to have as easy an experience as possible.

I am speaking with the experience of having recently bought an eee pc and an n800. Both run linux. The nokia n800 had a great application manager that automatically searched for new apps, with a description and the option to download. It was so easy. Of course, the option to add repos was there, and it was better if you did! But you didn't have to-you still got a lot of cool free stuff, that just installed itself seemlessly onto the device!

The eee pc under linux (I have now put XP on it, much better) is also great for only the basic things. Under what they call easy mode the core apps that were already installed can be easily updated. But as soon as you want to put something new onto it, it is really hard for a complete linux newbie. It took me days to understand the basics enough for me just to get VLC on there, and sopcast I just couldn't manage. And when I read and asked for help on the excellent forums eeeuser, the language that people used to write me help was still above me. It is all so new. Even simple thins, like press this key to do this weren't mentioned, cos the linux experts just KNEW. But the newbies not! DO you see what I mean? So XP, it had to be!

I know lots of you will just say 'Linux is easy' and I am sure for you it is! But Craig needs to mass sell this and people are scared of linux, with good reason! Most of us here are geeks, but we must realise that techie terms will scare off lots!

I know this has been said, but lots of us don't realise how important it is for people to believe that when they buy this, they will just be able to use it! Not fight with it. I read the other day that itunes, after opening up the sdk for the iphone (?) will be giving out the apps that people write for free via itunes. Whatever you think about itunes, this could be a fantastic thin-people can just visit itunes from their iphones, browse to a new app and download it straight onto their iphones! Simple and quick! If people can just do this, and know that it will be this easy before they buy then lots of people will buy this...

Sorry for my rant, but the post by the luna girl scared me. Why should someone HAVE TO learn linux when they buy this? I really, really don't want to have to learn Linux. Life is too short. I just wanna play!

It'll probably take about the same amount of Linux as you need to learn to use the GP2X so relax, you can remain just as blissfully ignorant as you want to be. You will no doubt be limited to only clicking on whatever more knowledgeable people willing to learn have arranged for you, maybe that's enough, most of us don't care much for limits.



Didn't mean that-I know I will be okay but I'm talking about future buyers. Shown these boards to a few of my mates, and when they read these threads they all, and I mean ALL said, "Na-it sounds too complicated for me!" (and they all hack their psps!)

It's not about me, it's how the Pandora (and Linux) is perceived. That's what I'm worried about...

Anyway, I have a lovely coffee here.

 

[DJWillis]

Reading DJWillis's remark ("Quite how this will work with removable SD's/NAND etc. ") made me wonder if it would not be possible to use this as a Pandora's strong point: Put a very basic kernel into the bowels of the thing and the rest on SD card. You could have one card set up as the games machine and another as a generic Linux PDA/UMPC/MID/whatever-buzzword.

If the different images could be made to fit in relatively small cards (512 MB or 1 GB), it wouldn't break the bank for a user to keep images on separate cards, or s/he could splash out for a big one and put all images on different partitions.

<snip>


Several steps ahead of you on that one but don't want to really go into specifics just yet.
Bootable devices and sequences are also totally unrelated to any sort of package systems.

One things for sure. The basic system will all be on NAND with nothing fixing you to an SD, what the advanced user does it another matter all together .

Excellent, all on the same page and shaping up very, very nicely. I predict you will wind up building your own distro and a package repository specific to the device. A lot of work but critical to controlling and idiot proofing the end user experience and possibly the key to overall success, got to close that loop. b-)

A man who seems to get the gist of where we are coming from with all this .

Keep the entry point low while making the power easy to harness.
Not an easy job to get right but then, if it was easy it would not be fun to mess about with and I only got roped into this with the promise of some 'hacking fun' .

 

[Karel Jansens]

Several steps ahead of you on that one but don't want to really go into specifics just yet.
Bootable devices and sequences are also totally unrelated to any sort of package systems.

One things for sure. The basic system will all be on NAND with nothing fixing you to an SD, what the advanced user does it another matter all together

Kewl! So I did make sense, then. Me so happy! :rolleyes:

If you're saying what I think you're saying, this would mean that the Pandora could be whatever a user wants it to be: a games machine, a full-blown UMPC or even a handy portable terminal (for the terminally geeky, that is B) ).

 

[Sphinxter]

A man who seems to get the gist of where we are coming from with all this .

Took a trip down a similar path once; http://fullsack.com/cart/

 

[AireTamStorm]

(I will not post any pictures of bunnies in this thread.)

Bunnies! Yay! That was a very special moment for me.

I think this device is going to be amazing, too! I really do hope that I will be able to get one... I hope it comes out soon. I just got a psp (so I can play Crisis Core); and I must say, even with all of the homebrew available, it's functionality has it's limits as far as creativity goes. I reeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaalllllllllyyyyyyyy really really really want a Pandora. It will be much fun. I am a little frightened about Linux though since I don't know much about it, but I want to learn. Any pointers? Sorry, I know I ask a lot of questions.


Alot of us have been using Linux or other Unixes like Mac OSX for a while. Feel free to ask questions or PM me if you'd like.