EssoAir
Well-Known Member
19%!!!!?!!!?!!?!?
And I thought my 10% was high.
health stuff (Split)
- Thread starter EssoAir
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19%!!!!?!!!?!!?!?
And I thought my 10% was high.
ekianjo
Hardcore Member
Mouahahaha - health care and social security in Europe is a disaster - they are constantly in the red and kept alive by infusion of public loans (=debts) from the governments everywhere. And social service is not even good. In the US, true, it's expensive, but you can actually pay to get good services and to see experts with proper equipment. The truth is that Healthcare IS expensive, no matter how much bullshit you hear about how "priceless" it is.
By the way, if you think these public services will never be taken away, you are in for a big surprise on the day where your country cannot pay back for its debt interests (and that will happen sooner or later since they keep digging deeper into debts every year).
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This is an off-topic branch of this thread and it should be split away to the off-topic section. Just wanted to say that at least in Belgium, social security has had surpluses for a very long period (too bad our politicians used these to implement tax cuts for the rich), and only recently it is starting to be "in the red". I wouldn't say that our healthcare system is a disaster, but it's true that too much of our tax money is going straight to profits for the pharmaceutical industry (typically American multinationals), so I think it could be improved by making the pharmaceutical industry publicly owned so its investments can be democratically decided (less marketing and diet pill research, more research to cure real diseases) and so they don't necessarily have to make huge profits. But alas my socialist ideas are not very popular amongst our current politicians.
ekianjo
Hardcore Member
I don't have a problem with pharmaceutical companies making money out of their invention but I have a problem with:
- goverments controlling the price of drugs (and accepting under-the-table-payments from drug companies)
- doctors being paid by the government (which is technically the case when you reimburse the doctor expenses through national health bodies)
- doctors being corrupted by pharma companies
- patents lasting too long (and being extended for no reason) -> there would be much more innovation if there were shorter
- excess of regulations which technically prevent the entry of new, small companies and keep the statu-quo with large pharma companies.
Kumaki
Well-Known Member
That is a wonderful sentiment...for a time in which our elected officials were not ACTIVELY doing everything they could to screw the average working citizen.
Yeah, proper healthcare IS expensive here in America.,...because WE get gouged so that the rest of the world gets cheap drugs and cheap medical care.
Here in America...you can actually die from being poor. Because you can't afford the healthcare that just might save your life.
God bless America! The land of "I Got Mine, To Hell With You."
Kumaki
Well-Known Member
Well they are popular with ME!!!
If believeing everyone ought to have BASIC healthcare available, so that little illnesses do not become large and kill...or worse, spread to infect a larger population...makes me a Socialist...
If believeing every person who works a forty hour week should be able to afford all of life's basic necessities and a few luxury items...makes me a Socialist...
Then you know what? I am PROUD to be a Socialist!
The American system is BROKEN.
The problem with socialism is when your in socialized medicine everything moves at a crawl . My aunts friend was up in Canada moose hunting ( they are an American ) and they got a major injury . The good was that the operation was free . The bad was that they had to wait eight months for their operation . Their injury was spinal . They ended up having to have their spouse hire a helicopter to fly them back to the states for the operation . Not only that but most Canadens come here when they need something urgently .
WizardStan
Mega GP Mania
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Shenanigans. An American doesn't get free surgery in Canada. My wife is American and I have to pay for her doctors visits until her Visa is approved. Furthermore, either the doctor she (edit: your aunt's friend, to be clear) went to see was incompetent or she wasn't actually considered to be at risk: it is far cheaper to deal with injuries immediately and will be handled as quickly as possible. If the hospital you're at can't take you then you should be transferred somewhere that can. When I had spontaneous and unexplained migraines I was sent to a hospital in a different city to get a CT scan within a week.
If you're just sitting around waiting for surgery then either you don't really need that surgery to continue being productive or your doctor isn't trying very hard to find you a surgeon.
If you're just sitting around waiting for surgery then either you don't really need that surgery to continue being productive or your doctor isn't trying very hard to find you a surgeon.
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Link
ithic.com
I can say that I caught a case of food poisoning while in the US military in Germany in 1997. Went to the ER, had an ultrasound, never got a bill. Didn't have to turn something into the US Gov't to reimburse the Germans, I never heard of the incident again.
WizardStan
Mega GP Mania
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Germany is awesome like that. The Canadian system is pretty good, I've never had a problem nor known anyone who had a problem (heard of lots of "friends of friends of friends" who spent months waiting for the simplest of procedures though...) but the way Germany handles their medicine (and education, well funded) is quite amazing.
This is a complicated issue, but I can add some information regarding Germany and share my personal conclusions.
Germany has private doctors and has been privatizing hospitals for some time now. The insurers are a mix between private and semi-private (operating under a mandate to accept any applicant). Like most first world countries, it is a complex mix of socialized medicine and free-market elements.
The regulatory system in Germany imposes very high secondary costs on patient care: for e.g. about 1/3-1/2 of the work a normal dentist performs and about 1/3rd of his operating costs come from unnecessary regulations and artificial busywork. Many procedures (such as implants) must be paid out-of-pocket, and the expense leads to people visiting less regulated countries to get their implants. (see articles on the booming medical tourism industry)
The USA does not have a free market in health care service. As in most countries, number of medical practitioners is restricted (leading to a lack of supply) and regulated (leading to higher costs).
To my eyes, medical care is a service provided by human beings, like any other service. The best service for the best price emerges from a truly competitive market of providers trying to please customers. It makes no sense to think of medical care as a "right" since this would mean you have a right to compel the services of another human.
Compulsory systems lead to inefficiency and abuse, while free and voluntary markets give birth to a natural mix of cooperation and competition, leading to flexibility, innovation and efficiency in meeting consumer demands.
Germany has private doctors and has been privatizing hospitals for some time now. The insurers are a mix between private and semi-private (operating under a mandate to accept any applicant). Like most first world countries, it is a complex mix of socialized medicine and free-market elements.
The regulatory system in Germany imposes very high secondary costs on patient care: for e.g. about 1/3-1/2 of the work a normal dentist performs and about 1/3rd of his operating costs come from unnecessary regulations and artificial busywork. Many procedures (such as implants) must be paid out-of-pocket, and the expense leads to people visiting less regulated countries to get their implants. (see articles on the booming medical tourism industry)
The USA does not have a free market in health care service. As in most countries, number of medical practitioners is restricted (leading to a lack of supply) and regulated (leading to higher costs).
To my eyes, medical care is a service provided by human beings, like any other service. The best service for the best price emerges from a truly competitive market of providers trying to please customers. It makes no sense to think of medical care as a "right" since this would mean you have a right to compel the services of another human.
Compulsory systems lead to inefficiency and abuse, while free and voluntary markets give birth to a natural mix of cooperation and competition, leading to flexibility, innovation and efficiency in meeting consumer demands.
To germany:
A friend of mine is 20 and has got cancer in 3rd stage, because for half a year no one wanted to inspect her properly, because she is not in the upper class health-insurance-system.
(Yes, there is a dual-system for people with more and people with less money here)
After this time, the tumor went through half of her body and was in plain sight already.
After 2 weeks of her treatment she already had to pay about 200€ herself. 90€ for the medicine, 10€ per day for the room, etc...
When I am ill, I always have to check my finances.
After my last (disastrous) operation they sent me home bleeding with the words "put some ice on it" and i had the baddest two weeks ever.
Since going to a doctor costs 10€ up front per quarter year, i cannot do it very often.
Thats what i get for all the money, that goes straight to taxes, before i even could see it and that is about 40% of your income in Germany.
Of course you have to count the 19% tax on everything you buy on top of it.
My workshop got a guy off the streets once and we had to pay for most of it ourself, because NO ONE helps you, if you have no address.
Needless to say, that we all have not got much money ourselves.
In all the time that I had no appartment, i had no right for any official support, because I was between 18 and 25 and there was a severe gap in the system.
At least for the ones that have to rely on it, this system is really broken too.
A friend of mine is 20 and has got cancer in 3rd stage, because for half a year no one wanted to inspect her properly, because she is not in the upper class health-insurance-system.
(Yes, there is a dual-system for people with more and people with less money here)
After this time, the tumor went through half of her body and was in plain sight already.
After 2 weeks of her treatment she already had to pay about 200€ herself. 90€ for the medicine, 10€ per day for the room, etc...
When I am ill, I always have to check my finances.
After my last (disastrous) operation they sent me home bleeding with the words "put some ice on it" and i had the baddest two weeks ever.
Since going to a doctor costs 10€ up front per quarter year, i cannot do it very often.
Thats what i get for all the money, that goes straight to taxes, before i even could see it and that is about 40% of your income in Germany.
Of course you have to count the 19% tax on everything you buy on top of it.
My workshop got a guy off the streets once and we had to pay for most of it ourself, because NO ONE helps you, if you have no address.
Needless to say, that we all have not got much money ourselves.
In all the time that I had no appartment, i had no right for any official support, because I was between 18 and 25 and there was a severe gap in the system.
At least for the ones that have to rely on it, this system is really broken too.
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Sorry to hear about your friend. Thanks for sharing these stories. I do find one complaint surprising though:
You pay 10€ once per quarter, and then can see the doctor as often as you want in that quarter. For 40€ you can go to the doctor every day for a year! This 10€ fee is really small in comparison to what you must pay for insurance, and in comparison to the doctor's operating expenses.
And 300+ percent taxes on gasoline, and taxes on owning a car. You ultimately give more than half your earned money to the government and mandatory insurance. (Of course some of that comes back in services to you, but you cannot decide what services you are willing to pay for.)
I know many stories of good health care in germany, as well as some stories of bad care. It is hard to make accurate generalizations from personal accounts.
