Going nubless?

[Grench]

What if...


What if we directly replaced the nubs with 1" diameter (or whatever fills the holes in the case) touch pads?


They're essentially a digital grid result that mimics an analog output - right?


No moving parts. Drag your thumbs around on them = joystick movements.


No silicone to tear. No room to get dirt in them.


Having two of them makes it a 'multitouch' device - humor.


Once production moves from direct-soldered to socket based (Batch 3?), in theory OPL might be able to offer either/both?


Thoughts?

 

[DaMummy]

What if...


What if we directly replaced the keyboard with touchscreen and put a touchscreen keyboard on it?


They're essentially the same - right?


No moving parts. Drag your thumbs around on them = joystick movements.


No silicone to tear. No room to get dirt in them.


Having two of them makes it a 'multitouch' device - humor.


Once production moves from non-existent to productive, in theory OPL might be able to offer either/both?


Thoughts?

 

[Yannick]

i'd take a multi touch screen update


maybe a trackball for one of the nubs

 

[ProfChaos]

What about going nub-less until nub mass production is underway and simply installing them ourselves later?

 

[TrashyMG]

What I've seen of how the Nubs get soldered on, this is not a simple soldering process, requires precision soldering iron and such. Not to mention the chance that disassembly could damage or dislocate the fragile LCD cable, I have just about 25 years experience soldering wouldn't want to play with it.


But have at it I suppose.

 

[AquaAnalogue]

Honestly I can't say I'm completely against this, but it would need some re-thinking.


Naturally, I'd be all for the lack of moving parts-- less moving parts = less wear and tear = longer Pandora life.


But also, I love me some tactile response. The way I have learned to control analogues would require some retooling as I tend to control them by holding them at the maximum and "letting off" pressure as I need to. These new "digilogue" nubs would require a constant awareness of where the centre was. It would be like the analogue nubs not centring themselves. See, analogues have a bias toward being centred. Thus, to counter the force toward the centre, you have to generate force with your thumb with an equal centring force. It's unnecessary to get into spring constants and all that, but it's easy to see that if we abandon moving parts altogether, it will be difficult if not impossible to replicate the necessity of maintaining a constant force in the direction in which you wish to go.


I guess what I'm saying is that, given the necessary increase in awareness of the nubs as a control mechanism, it would be harder to "become the nub," a process which is necessary for true Video-Game Enlightenment.


Here's a somewhat different idea: How about a gently-but-not-too-gently-sloped surface instead of a flat one, that dips in the centre and extends circularly upward? With some self-training, we could learn to let our thumbs "fall" back toward the centre and apply force to "climb" in our intended direction.

 

[Grench]

Honestly I can't say I'm completely against this, but it would need some re-thinking.


Naturally, I'd be all for the lack of moving parts-- less moving parts = less wear and tear = longer Pandora life.


But also, I love me some tactile response. The way I have learned to control analogues would require some retooling as I tend to control them by holding them at the maximum and "letting off" pressure as I need to. These new "digilogue" nubs would require a constant awareness of where the centre was. It would be like the analogue nubs not centring themselves. See, analogues have a bias toward being centred. Thus, to counter the force toward the centre, you have to generate force with your thumb with an equal centring force. It's unnecessary to get into spring constants and all that, but it's easy to see that if we abandon moving parts altogether, it will be difficult if not impossible to replicate the necessity of maintaining a constant force in the direction in which you wish to go.


I guess what I'm saying is that, given the necessary increase in awareness of the nubs as a control mechanism, it would be harder to "become the nub," a process which is necessary for true Video-Game Enlightenment.


Here's a somewhat different idea: How about a gently-but-not-too-gently-sloped surface instead of a flat one, that dips in the centre and extends circularly upward? With some self-training, we could learn to let our thumbs "fall" back toward the centre and apply force to "climb" in our intended direction.

Thank you for an honest consideration of the idea.


What about having the touchpad 'return to center' when -not- receiving a signal? I.e. if you lift your thumb off of the outside edge, it returns to 0,0?


Then, if you re-touch the outer edge, it goes directly to full-on in that direction, touch half way there and it goes to 50% of that direction, etc...


Drag your thumb around the outer edge and it goes 100% on while tracing that vector. Lift the thumb and it returns to center.


You are right in that it would have a different feel - there is nothing quite like having that physical feedback of knowing you have the joystick 'all out'. That is why I'm approaching this mostly from the angle of allowing these as an option once the nubs go from soldered to socket based.


If/when the nubs are socket based, I could see it opening up a whole new world of options. Someone mentioned a track ball - it might not be all that far fetched to swap a nub with a track ball.


Part of this idea is for OpenPandora to be able to sell the "Batch 3?" socket based consoles and then additional modules to fit the sockets. So, in theory at least, they should be able to be swapped for replacement nubs, touch pads, track balls, scroll wheel pairs, small button arrays (no idea why a person would want to - but it should be possible by assigning each button coordinates on the analog matrix).


I don't know how smart the signaling is between the nub and the motherboard. If it is restricted to X,Y coordinates with the analog conversion happening on the Pandora motherboard it limits the possibilities a bit. If it is a serial/usb type signal where it gets digitized on the controller, then it opens the potential for a fingerprint reader, barcode scanner, camera and even combination devices.


I fully realize that my Batch 1 Pandora console will have nubs soldered to the board. I had always meant my purchase to be my chance to evaluate the console to determine if it would work well to get my twin boys (going on 9 now) consoles of their own. Theirs would be 'batch 3' if they happen.


This is meant as a dreamer thread. That said, I think that the options discussed in it should be limited to what could possibly be stuck in the nub socket once it becomes socket based. And lets not suggest any human anatomy be utilized. OK?


Grench

 

[AquaAnalogue]

Thank you for an honest consideration of the idea.

No need to thank me. Persons who don't respect others' ideas, however "impractical" or "different," irritate me. It is easy to see from history that all progress has developed from abnormality. Hell, it's easy to see from logic. Progress is defined as change in a positive direction and abnormality is defined as deviation from the norm, or change.

What about having the touchpad 'return to center' when -not- receiving a signal? I.e. if you lift your thumb off of the outside edge, it returns to 0,0?


Then, if you re-touch the outer edge, it goes directly to full-on in that direction, touch half way there and it goes to 50% of that direction, etc...


Drag your thumb around the outer edge and it goes 100% on while tracing that vector. Lift the thumb and it returns to center.

Your idea seems awkward as a nub replacement, no offense. Analogue nubs are called analogue because that's what they are. The concept of recognising only an "on/off" state is what makes a digital input digital. I'm not saying that your concept has no place, but it does not correctly emulate the "analoguesqueness" off the nubs. What's wrong with my sloped-digilogue idea?

That is why I'm approaching this mostly from the angle of allowing these as an option once the nubs go from soldered to socket based.

Ahh, I see now, but I originally thought you were out to design something that was, say, *cue vocoder* Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger. I wasn't considering that you were designing an alternative. The only hint you give to that is that "in theory" OPT could offer "either/both." Your topic title seems to confirm you're out to assassinate analogues, and I wouldn't enjoy this process as, according to my username, I seem to be an aqua-coloured and/or water-based one (among other reasons). So long as an idea like this remains an alternative (read: analogue nubs are still available), I am all for the ability to make our nub sockets do new amazing things (sounds like a geeky Cosmo headline...)

 

[Grench]

No need to thank me. Persons who don't respect others' ideas, however "impractical" or "different," irritate me. It is easy to see from history that all progress has developed from abnormality. Hell, it's easy to see from logic. Progress is defined as change in a positive direction and abnormality is defined as deviation from the norm, or change.

As sad as it may sound, it is refreshing to see someone post a genuine response built to continue a conversation rather than a slam. For that, thank you. The discourse in forums, here and elsewhere, has largely turned into a contest to see who can post the most hilarious burn on the original poster. So, thank you for adding to the conversation and giving it some genuine thought.

Your idea seems awkward as a nub replacement, no offense. Analogue nubs are called analogue because that's what they are. The concept of recognising only an "on/off" state is what makes a digital input digital. I'm not saying that your concept has no place, but it does not correctly emulate the "analoguesqueness" off the nubs. What's wrong with my sloped-digilogue idea?

A touchpad does not have to be on/off. The response that a touchpad on a laptop receives is coordinate based. I.e. it receives an X,Y coordinate then tracks movement from there. In the idea I have, we would be reading that raw X,Y and proclaiming that to be the position of the 'virtual joystick' at that instant. There is nothing wrong with the sloped idea. I don't think it would be necessary though. Your thumbs would get used to it pretty fast.


Think of the nubs/joystick as returning an X,Y position on a square 2D surface. The round touchpad would return the same X,Y position data from a circle - easier to interpret as vectors (direction and intensity) that can be calibrated to give the same result.


0,0 on a Joystick is 'center' and what happens if you lift your thumbs off (spring to center). 0,0 could be calibrated on a touchpad as being what happens when your thumb is dead center on it -and- when your thumb is off of it.

Ahh, I see now, but I originally thought you were out to design something that was, say, *cue vocoder* Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger. I wasn't considering that you were designing an alternative. The only hint you give to that is that "in theory" OPT could offer "either/both." Your topic title seems to confirm you're out to assassinate analogues, and I wouldn't enjoy this process as, according to my username, I seem to be an aqua-coloured and/or water-based one (among other reasons). So long as an idea like this remains an alternative (read: analogue nubs are still available), I am all for the ability to make our nub sockets do new amazing things (sounds like a geeky Cosmo headline...)

The intent of this was never to have the Pandora replace the nubs on shipping units. Sorry if it came out that way. The idea is more along the lines of allowing for alternate bits that can plug into the spot where the nubs are to provide alternatives that OpenPandora would then be able to sell.

 

[Yannick]

from stuff i gathered around:


due to the way the nubs work, and how the sockets would work.


anything replacing a nub would have to present an X/Y analog signal to the socket


so touch based nubs would have to have their own controllers and what not to properly calculate the signal needed to present to the board.


could be more difficult then necessary


however, multiple strengths of centering could be an option


a nub that stays on it's place if you release it


a nub that has alot of centering force


...

 

[MarioPandio]

This thread has been simply delightful in its discourse and if I could return to any thread via a time machine it would be this one, oh yes, as we shan't the likes of that again!


Now not to Mummy or Grinch about things out of season as Mr Walken also isn't available but "That said, I think that the options discussed in it should be limited to what could possibly be stuck in the nub socket once it becomes socket based" and other suggestions that OPT could sell as add-ons, is a very interesting idea!


Without further ado about nothing sirs, or any reference to anatomical parts best left as the last chicken in the shop, I suggest a full range of peripherals be made available immediately, or at least as soon as rubber shares have returned to normal following Mr Craig's re-entry to this reality. What a guy!


Now I su-su-su-su-s-s-s-s-s-s-ssssssss...uck..ucked up a Penny Arcade and yet my socketed Pandora attachments can perform any number of tasks from in or outside the box of hope and yet its surprising how few people own one!


Don't worry sir, I'll just change that bag out and be back in a jiffy (stasis leaking 2mnths) with my multi purpose, polymorphic, timesliding, dimension jumping, better than life, or junior angler, pleasure gelf!


Just ignore the Despair Squid you bunch of twonks...


Those that didn't have the F5 luck virus on the the glorious day that Cheggers the Stupendous and he of the Evil Dawn affliction beheld unto us the Chuginater and the promised land beyond the vapor veil of discontent....where the inny & outty bits of plenty were in easy reach and calibosses nation was promised as your quaking trials rewards. Easy now, easy now...for Lo...here be the beast and its order number is?


Purple alert...


No offense meant...only joking!


"Right so Its decided then. We pre-order a Pandora"...


"So what is it?"...


"I've no idea, I've never seen one before, no one has, but I'm guessing its an open console"


"An open console?"


"Yes!. Where a corporately locked down, black as pitch console, sucks life out of its users, an open console returns it!"


"So your saying this thing is like spewing timely gaming and every new reality back into the universe?"


"Potentially yes but we'd need to consult Jacquelyn"


"So what is it?"....."Well its like relative time dilation in an incredibly compressed space!"


"Exactly what I thought"


"Anyone like any toast?"...."You sure?"


"As I thought you may have changed your mind in the meantime!"


"HowdyDoDallyDO!"...

 

[Caine]

I have got an idea, ho about replacing nubs with tiny capacitive touch screens, which can display a nub, and its movement,(anything is possible with sockets ).

You mean to say you actually look at your nubs to see where they are? I don't see a bright future for gaming without tactile feedback at all. Any non-moving touch surface would need to have some form of texture on it which makes you feel where on the surface your hands are.


I tried to play sonic on a friends iPhone a week or so ago which displayed a nub on the touchscreen. I would say it was unplayable.

 

[ToastBucket]

There could be a physical ring or rim around the outside of the touchpad so that you know where the end of the pad is. The problem I've seen with touch controls is that you don't know where they are, because you can't feel them. If there's a ring around the pad, you know the limits of the "nub".

 

[Sugar_Kane]

I know touch controls are fashionable at the moment, but I have used roughly 4 or 5 touch screen devices for gaming and my conclusion is that touch controls are not suitable for serious gaming at all. They're fine for casual play, games such as cooking mama, but i've found that anything that requires more precise control essentially renders you handicapped.


I really don't understand why we need to move away from physical controls, tactile feedback is vital to controlling games properly.


I would love a mini trackball though! I think there should have been one included in the original design, it would have made the Pandora more of a complete package. Mouse control via nubs is ok, but not ideal.

 

[SNESFAN]

I would love a mini trackball though! I think there should have been one included in the original design, it would have made the Pandora more of a complete package. Mouse control via nubs is ok, but not ideal.

I believe a 1 nub and 1 trackball pandora would have been more appropriate givin the nature of this device; a "retro game console emulator"


I can't think of many/any retro game consoles that use dual analog controls. Nor can I think of any game console this is currently capable of emulating that would need 2 nubs.


I can think of several retro arcade systems that used trackballs though. Not to mention it would be more natural to use trackball rather than nubs for mouse emulation.


If the nubs are socket able, hopefully they will give the option to replace one of those sockets with a trackball in a future version of the pandora.

 

[Stradian]

Hmm... I won't vote for nublessness.