EvilDragon's Coffee Hoard (Coffee discussion split from on-topic)

[ClockworkCoder]

@Lambda You are falling in to the trap of having made a decision and compiling "facts" to back up your own thinking, rather than looking at the facts objectively. You can follow your own dietary preferences without the dogmatic, misinformed rubbish you're spouting. You also appear to believe that we were "created" as opposed to having evolved over many millions of years. We are not the same species as other (exclusively) fruit eating mammals.

Incisors are not suited for tearing flesh

I can assure you that they work perfectly well. We also have a highly developed brain which has been of great use to us in order to create heat and develop tools to further cook and tenderise otherwise tough or old meat.

predators cannot move their jaw sideways because that way their jaw is stronger, preventing it from dislocating while they are ripping flesh

Not all predators are the same. Snakes don't even bother ripping flesh for the most part, and dislocate their jaws while eating.

Which prey animal do we outrun?

With the aid of our superior intellect, every animal in existence. Like it or not, our brains and how they work is what has made us both the most formidable predator and (one of) the most adaptable animal (for living in extremes of environments) on the planet.

We lack the immunity that real carnivores have

Because we don't need it. Ever since we discovered how to burn (or smoke) things.

What is it's purpose? (re colour vision) It does make us the best finder of ripe fruit out of all animals

We have great colour vision to be able to more easily distinguish poisonous or deadly animals / plants, as well as being able to distinguish prey animals that are much less obvious to other predators (many predators react to movement more than other visual cues). (Edit: typo correction, thanks @levi)

 

[levi]

We have great colour vision to be able to more easily distinguish poisonous or deadly animals / plants, as well as being able to distinguish prey animals that are much less obvious to other predators (many predators react to movement more than other visual queues).

Cues, not queues FWIW.

I'm a little unsure as to why we need tri-colour vision. The fact that two-colour seers are still quite common in the population suggests that it might not have been a great impediment back in the day. It might have been more important if we weren't so damn capable of higher thought and decent shape recognition though, I guess.

 

[ClockworkCoder]

I'm a little unsure as to why we need tri-colour vision

We may not "need" it, but it sure as hell helps (ask anyone who is colour blind).

The danger that most of the arguments like "we simply aren't designed to x" makes the flawed assumption that everything evolutionary attribute we have serves some specific requirement. It's like, as Douglas Adams posited, when the puddle asks itself how it is that the hole in the earth was specifically designed to fit it perfectly, and that it must have been molded specifically to fit it as no other puddle would quite fit it so comfortably.

We are the way we are simply because we have not only survived, but thrived as a result of our inherited mutations. If there comes a time that we don't fit well to our surroundings, then we will either adapt, or die out.

By the way, thanks for the correction - I knew that (cues), but apparently had a brain fart (which happens quite a lot).

 

[Swordfish II]

I'm done. You are bat shit.

I eat meat, a ton of meat. Protein and training allows me to bench 330lbs, squat 440lbs and deadlift 550lbs.

I have been bodybuilding competition lean.

I think i know nutrition and I'm done talking with someone that clearly has no clue about healthy eating or nutrition. As you have evidenced by your wildly extreme views.

You go eat your fruit and suffer nutritional imbalances.

Side note though: Babies only drink milk which is only protein and fat...not fruit, sugar or carbohydrates hmm by your wild logic guess humans aren't made to eat fruit.

 

[Xcl4m4t10n]

I do not need other people's approval for my diet. Therefore despite my diet being unconventional I do not need the assistance of a sect. In fact many of my fat friends disagree with me on dietary issues. But I do not talk much to friends about diet. It gets on people's nerves quickly if I do. I save the talking for forums filled with strangers.

OFC my answer was sarcasm but I didn't expect you to get that. Anyway if you don't rely on anybody or anything about your diet... How do you know you are right about your conclussions? I am very curious about this, I just lost 50kg after 3 years and I though that I knew something, but seems that you know tons of things that nobody aside of you know. Please, share you acknownledges!

 

[λ the β-Redex Reducer]

@Lambda You are falling in to the trap of having made a decision and compiling "facts" to back up your own thinking, rather than looking at the facts objectively. You can follow your own dietary preferences without the dogmatic, misinformed rubbish you're spouting. You also appear to believe that we were "created" as opposed to having evolved over many millions of years. We are not the same species as other (exclusively) fruit eating mammals.

No, I tried other diets too and in fact paleo was high on my list of diets to try. I was very flexible and made no effort to defend diets that did not work. The only reason that I defend this diet is because it worked. Otherwise I would have dropped it like I did with all other diets before it.

I'm done. You are bat shit.

I eat meat, a ton of meat. Protein and training allows me to bench 330lbs, squat 440lbs and deadlift 550lbs.

I have been bodybuilding competition lean.

Good for you. However I am more interested in health then in bodybuilding.

I think i know nutrition and I'm done talking with someone that clearly has no clue about healthy eating or nutrition. As you have evidenced by your wildly extreme views.

What is extreme is dependent on which viewpoint you take. Due to that the extremist card can always be used from both sides of a discussion whenever people vastly differ in opinions.

You are just as extreme from my viewpoint as I am from your viewpoint. Thus in order to prove that I am really the extreme one you must first prove that your viewpoint is the right one which means that you must prove that you are right. Hence in order to prove that you are right by showing that I am extreme you must first prove that you are right. This is why you cannot prove anything by just pointing out that I am extreme from your point of view, except that we vastly disagree.

You go eat your fruit and suffer nutritional imbalances.

So far it is going well.

Side note though: Babies only drink milk which is only protein and fat...not fruit, sugar or carbohydrates hmm guess humans aren't made to eat fruit.

Human milk has hundreds of nutrients. Besides babies use lactose for energy instead of fructose. But when they get older they lose the ability to properly digest lactose and need to switch to fructose (or glucose). Do you think that calves also should eat meat because they live on milk for the first few weeks of their lives? What about other primates who switch from milk to a diet of almost exclusively fruit? What nutrients do they lack?
Babies get milk and adults do not because babies have different nutritional needs than adults. If babies and adults had the same nutritional needs then either babies would eat the adult diet immediately or animals would drink milk throughout their whole life.
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OFC my answer was sarcasm but I didn't expect you to get that.

Glad to surprise, I guess.

Anyway if you don't rely on anybody or anything about your diet... How do you know you are right about your conclussions?

I rely on other people, but they need evidence. In this case I was swayed by them pointing out that humans have the physiology of a frugivore and later on by my own experiences trying out what they told me.

I am very curious about this, I just lost 50kg after 3 years and I though that I knew something, but seems that you know tons of things that nobody aside of you know. Please, share you acknownledges!

Nothing I say is original. You can all look it up yourself. Whole books have been written on the subject.

 

[levi]

FWIW, Wikipedia has a decent write up on Fruitarianism. It lists some famous people who adopted the diet, and it seems to me the only defense against getting ill on such a diet is bullshit, given the only people listed who didn't get extremely ill on the diet were Idi Amin, Ben Klassen and Steve Jobs.

 

[rSl]

... If there comes a time that we don't fit well to our surroundings, then we will either adapt, or die out.

because of the huge climate-"issue" we have right now, i set my bet on the second option.
as there is not so much time left, we should use it wisely to be friends and drink a good coffee and/or tea, kick back and relax...

 

[Xcl4m4t10n]

I rely on other people, but they need evidence. In this case I was swayed by them pointing out that humans have the physiology of a frugivore and later on by my own experiences trying out

So no scientific points or links? Damn, this is disappoint...

what they told me.

A friend of mine told me that donkeis can fly, so I suppouse that must be true based on your logic.

Nothing I say is original. You can all look it up yourself. Whole books have been written on the subject.

I was reading a book assuring that Hitler was an alien so, again based on your damn good logic, it's true.

The power of "what my friends told me" and "there are books about it" combined together! I would like to see the results of your blood analitics.

Steve Jobs.

From Wikipedia:

Historical figures

[...]

• Steve Jobs[45]

Also from Wikipedia:

Jobs died at his Palo Alto, California, home around 3 p.m. (PDT) on October 5, 2011, due to complications from a relapse of his previously treated islet-cell pancreatic neuroendocrine tumor,[...]

.

 

[Swordfish II]

FWIW, Wikipedia has a decent write up on Fruitarianism. It lists some famous people who adopted the diet, and it seems to me the only defense against getting ill on such a diet is bullshit, given the only people listed who didn't get extremely ill on the diet were Idi Amin, Ben Klassen and Steve Jobs.

I love how this is in the wiki

According to nutritionists, adults must be careful not to follow a fruit-only diet for too long.[16] A fruitarian diet is wholly unsuitable for children (including teens), and several children have died due to having fruitarian diets imposed on them.[17][16]

The Health Promotion Program at Columbia Universityreports that a fruitarian diet can cause deficiencies in calcium, protein, iron, zinc, vitamin D, most B vitamins (especially B12), and essential fatty acids.[17]

 

[ClockworkCoder]

because of the huge climate-"issue" we have right now, i set my bet on the second option.
as there is not so much time left, we should use it wisely to be friends and drink a good coffee and/or tea, kick back and relax...

Absolutely

Not that I'm vegan or anything, I do quite like soy milk lattes these days (and mostly avoid too much caffeine, so it's usually decaffeinated).

I also have an aeropress which I feel makes fantastic coffee.

 

[λ the β-Redex Reducer]

A friend of mine told me that donkeis can fly, so I suppouse that must be true based on your logic.

Try reading the whole sentence that you picked your quoted from, the rest of the sentence contains my reason and "my friends told me so" was not it. In fact it is not even "Wikipedia told me so".

We may not "need" it, but it sure as hell helps (ask anyone who is colour blind).

Colour vision helps us because our society is made for colour vision because colour vision is our primary sense. But since cones are not very sensitive to light colour vision comes at the cost of good night vision and night vision is much more beneficial for predators than colour vision is. So colour vision is a burden to predators. It forces us to hunt exclusively at times when our prey is at it's strongest.

 

[bukkit]

The difference between a coffee addiction and my fruit "addiction" is that I am not actually addicted to fruit, I can easily go a day (at least) without and will feel great that day. There are always less healthy foods to fall back on like vegetables or peanuts.

Like most of us with coffee.

Humans are frugivores and for a human living on fruit is natural and normal.

Humans are omnivores.

I am not surprised at all that humans are the sickest species on Earth.

They are sickest because of healthcare. Animals just die under a lot of circumstances humans live. So the ones left are more healthy.

Like drinking another animal's milk through adulthood. What other animal does this? Why would we need a substance that is optimised for a cow and that we lost the ability to digest? To me this is utter madness.

There is a genetic switch enabling adult humans to drink milk. Some don't have it, so they develop difficulties drinking milk. But what's more to the point is telling the gnat: "Like drinking another animal's blood through adulthood. What other animal does this? Why would we need a substance that is optimised for the blood circuit of a human? To me this is utter madness."

And we need to eat it dead, unlike real carnivorous who prefer their meat with the blood still flowing through it.

You mean like vultures, foxes, ravens? Dead meat is a very important part of their diet.
Most animals also don't wash their food before consumption. Would I call you sick because you prepare it like no animal does? You do know that animals don't fry their food, don't eat bread, don't make tofu?

If natural sugar is so unhealthy, then why are we optimised with our colour vision to find ripe fruit and with our taste buds to enjoy it?

If meat is is so unhealthy, then why are we optimised with our movement vision to find animals and with our taste buds to enjoy it?

I am just giving my opinion on the matter.

You don't give opinion. You state arbitrary beliefs as facts supporting your lifestyle choices. Which is essentially religious.

No doubt, people eat much too much of a lot of foods which weren't readily available to them before. And they're programmed to like certain food, which was useful when it was scarce, and becomes dangerous when it's exploited by the food industry. But veganism even is dangerous, too: because. Yeah, I know, it *can* work, but then, to quote someone: What animal does prepare artificial B12 and D for his children to compensate for a forced malnourishment? To me this is utter madness.

(edited for small stuff and the fact I stepped on the reply when I wanted to preview.)
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But I do not talk much to friends about diet. It gets on people's nerves quickly if I do. I save the talking for forums filled with strangers.

I wish I could like parts of a post. I'd like this.

 

[ClockworkCoder]

Talking about diets, there is an argument to be had that the agricultural and industrial revolutions had a detrimental effect on our diets. I do feel that east asian diets (primarily fish and rice) are generally healthier, and longer life expectancy in countries like Japan can give some credence to that hypothesis.

However, that still is to ignore subtle genetic differences (higher risk of diabetes or heart disease, for example), or the country's healthcare (check comparisons of the cost of pharmaceuticals comparing UK with the US).

Put simply, diet is a four letter word to me: it's something people do temporarily (usually, but not always, to lose weight) as a fad. To eat healthily is just to eat anything in moderation, avoid binging or comfort eating, and to enjoy life.

Also I would note that your senses are slightly keener when you're hungry: a hungry predator will go the extra mile to find prey, while a full one will be docile and lazy.

 

[levi]

FWIW, I heard something related to the recent mega parrot fossil discovery on the radio. The feller they were talking to about it noted that animals tend to become omnivorous or outright carnivores as they scale up in size, to maintain their muscle mass, speculating that said mega parrot probably hunted animals for their meat. Given we're mostly bigger than our forebears, this presumably also applies to us, even though our sister great apes are mostly frugivores, different species eat different insects, and many also eat bird eggs. Orangs have even been spotted trying to fish using spears (unsuccessfully thus far apparently).

 

[λ the β-Redex Reducer]

Most animals also don't wash their food before consumption. Would I call you sick because you prepare it like no animal does? You do know that animals don't fry their food, don't eat bread, don't make tofu?

All I do with my fruit is peel it. I typically do not wash it, do not fry it, and do not let it grow into either bread or tofu. Just like other primates.

Put simply, diet is a four letter word to me: it's something people do temporarily (usually, but not always, to lose weight) as a fad. To eat healthily is just to eat anything in moderation, avoid binging or comfort eating, and to enjoy life.

That advice is so general as to be meaningless. Any diet could be believed to be in accord with those guidelines.

 

[ClockworkCoder]

. Any diet could be believed to be in accord with those guidelines.

The key word in my sentence was "temporary", and yes the "diet" doesn't matter. Jumping from one fad to the next or even sticking to one restrictive diet for a prolonged period are rarely going to be good for you.

 

[λ the β-Redex Reducer]

The key word in my sentence was "temporary", and yes the "diet" doesn't matter. Jumping from one fad to the next or even sticking to one restrictive diet for a prolonged period are rarely going to be good for you.

Then why do you think that obesity rates are increasing if not due to diet?

 

[ClockworkCoder]

Then why do you think that obesity rates are increasing if not due to diet?

Changing lifestyles.