Pandora Can I Install On Pandora Other Operating Systems?

[xafier]

You could just use Visual Studio itself, with a cross compiler .

That's what I'll be using (Visual Studio 2008) just need to set it up to cross-compile once we've got a toolchain ready for the Pandora

 

[gargo]

You can use Eclipse, a cross-pataform JAVA IDE. There are lots of plugins that let you program in PHP, C/C++, Python...

Your Eclipse may be look like Visual Studio, but I asked for fast programs, and all around Java is too slow.

How about Visual Studio?

(Or its free cousin, Visual Studio Express)

Lots of people use it for GP2X applications, it shouldn't be any different for creating Pandora apps.

Now I have only VS2003 and I haven't seen supporting linux programming in it. And I don't need VSExpress, because there are many DVDs in our conutry with crcked versions of programs, but since July I will use the full version and it absotely legally for non-commercial development

 

[sindbad]

Eclipse is quite fast actually, since it uses SWT. The only issue might be ram, but 1gb should be enough.
Netbeans also has a c++ plugin (bundle actually), but it's not as good as eclipse's cdt.
Code::blocks is not java (since you seem to not like that) and it's free. Quite good.
KDevelop 4.0 will be out later this year and will include a windows version.
If all else fails, you can just use Notepad++ for editing and mingw for compilation.

All of the above is free and open source.

 

[randomhack]

What about porting Symbian, now it's going to be Open Sourced?

http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS8056168201.html

There's a whole lot of Symbian apps out there and I'm pretty sure it already supports the OMAP3.




It appears that symbian wont actually go open source before 2009 end or early 2010.
Right now Nokia has given an offer to buy. A lot of regulatory hurdles must be cleared before the buyout is complete. Then the legal department will probably need to go through Symbian code for 3rd party licensed IP.

I ask about Windows CE 6.0 because there are a lot of programs on it and many various developmrent tools. I legally will be getting this version of Windows next month (they wrote, that this disk contains versions for various CPUs: ARM, MIPS, ).

The amount of effort require to make WinCE run on it will be much larger than learning to program Linux.
And btw are you reasonably sure that the person selling you the disk isnt actually fooling you?

 

[Svartalf]

The amount of effort require to make WinCE run on it will be much larger than learning to program Linux.

Indeed. Even if you're familiar with Windows programming, it's not a good idea from a mainline homebrew aspect- if you can't legally give out copies of the install, nobody else wanting to be legit will run it (not even going into what MS would do to you if they caught up with you handing out instances of WinCE in a handheld without paying their per-unit royalties and the overall distribution royalty owed for that task...). Putting something other than the community provided firmware is purely from a "because I can" point of view. And, it's not a simple thing. Board bring-up, under pretty much any OS is going to be painful and require some top-shelf skillsets. Trust me, I know- I've done this sort of thing for a while now in the embedded space and in Linux in general. If you don't have a pre-rolled BSP for WinCE, you will be doing board bring-up.

QUOTE

And btw are you reasonably sure that the person selling you the disk isnt actually fooling you?


And that was the first thing that went through my mind when I saw that. Microsoft only provides the code needed to support their parts of the install on MIPS, SH4, ARM, etc. They flatly do not provide anything but baseline drivers (which the SOC we're using won't have in it- you'll have to find a BSP package from someone...) and if you ARE getting all of that plus drivers for things like the DSP or GPU on this SOC, you're getting BSPs as well. I have to wonder how much he's paying for this legal copy... (And one wonders if the BSP sets he claims to be getting have transferable licenses... That's right, boys and girls, not all code is purchaseable- some of it's licensed and the licenses DO NOT TRANSFER, meaning you can't just "buy" it from someone who's paid the other party their licenses...)

 

[gargo]

Eclipse is quite fast actually, since it uses SWT.

I used one of the last verdions of Java. It is very slow on my old PC. But people say that it is too slow ever on new computers.
About other your programs. In russian they say that KDeveloop isn't interesting and not useful for anybody.
Notepad++ may be interesting but I asked for full projects not contain editor only (without compiller). Such programs are worse at all. And I can't understand, why don't you like VisualStudio? You don't like Microsoft, as company, isn't it? In our country VS is the most used development tool. After it Delphi go. And the third is Java.
Programs you adwiced me are open source but ever you cannot say thet they are fully finished development tools and that they don't contain serious mistakes. It is their main problems.

QUOTE
And btw are you reasonably sure that the person selling you the disk isnt actually fooling you?

These programs cost around 700$ for the university, our university has bought them, and so these programs are legel and absolutely free for noncommercial use for students and teachers.

QUOTE
Indeed. Even if you're familiar with Windows programming, it's not a good idea from a mainline homebrew aspect- if you can't legally give out copies of the install, nobody else wanting to be legit will run it (not even going into what MS would do to you if they caught up with you handing out instances of WinCE in a handheld without paying their per-unit royalties and the overall distribution royalty owed for that task...). Putting something other than the community provided firmware is purely from a "because I can" point of view. And, it's not a simple thing. Board bring-up, under pretty much any OS is going to be painful and require some top-shelf skillsets. Trust me, I know- I've done this sort of thing for a while now in the embedded space and in Linux in general. If you don't have a pre-rolled BSP for WinCE, you will be doing board bring-up.

Almost without comments. On this forum you write that you are looking for hackers. And if you don't like ever speak about windows, you can close and ever delete this topic. May be I can't understand you, but I understand your laws about copyright.

 

[sindbad]

He has a point about redistribution. If you'd like all pandora users to be able to use your software, it must be able to run on the default software. It would be illegal for users to install wince on their pandoras without buying a licence first.

And you didn't try Code::blocks

 

[peca]

As somebody already say, for various operating systems drivers are needed. I guess that Pandora is very good pocket computer, that may interest even business sphere. But for business sphere (management, sales men, etc) is Windows Mobile something much better than damn geeky linux (no offense).

My opinion is, that if drivers for Windows Mobile are available, than Pandora may hit business users. I don't know if WM is available individuals, but I guess that it must be licensed by device manufacturer. I guess that Craig & co. don't mind about businessmen, as they are concerned about community users. But maybe second or third batch of Pandora HW can try target to this market.

This mean that somebody (any voluntaries?) wrote WM drivers and I don't even hope for this. But I guess that such device with chooseable OS (wow maybe even dual boot) could be sought after.

 

[Svartalf]

As somebody already say, for various operating systems drivers are needed. I guess that Pandora is very good pocket computer, that may interest even business sphere. But for business sphere (management, sales men, etc) is Windows Mobile something much better than damn geeky linux (no offense).

If that were the case, the eeePC wouldn't have sold over a MILLION units, all using Xandros.

Here's a bit of reality for you. Business users, on a mobile device, don't give a flip about what it's running as long as it does what it needs to. If what you say was the case, why is it that WM devices haven't made anywhere near the penetration, nor have any of the Windows based MIDs, than what MS would like to have- or like for you to believe they have.

QUOTE

My opinion is, that if drivers for Windows Mobile are available, than Pandora may hit business users. I don't know if WM is available individuals, but I guess that it must be licensed by device manufacturer. I guess that Craig & co. don't mind about businessmen, as they are concerned about community users. But maybe second or third batch of Pandora HW can try target to this market.



WM is NOT available to individuals. It's strictly per device line- and it's royalties, while per unit, typically are "inexpensive" they're not at all cheap, nor are they going to be "inexpensive" per unit at the quantities that the Pandora's going to sell. Besides, familiarity (developer, that is...) is the only reason one would be wanting WM- it's really NOT as easy to code for when compared to Linux. Keep reminding yourself over and over- people largely do NOT care what OS is running on a MID type device as long as it does what is asked of it by the users in an easy and consistent manner. Using WM doesn't make this any different than what you have on the Maemo or Symbian application platforms. One of which uses Linux.

QUOTE

This mean that somebody (any voluntaries?) wrote WM drivers and I don't even hope for this. But I guess that such device with chooseable OS (wow maybe even dual boot) could be sought after.


Considering that you need technical information, something that the Linux developers don't even have for pieces of this (3D, for the large part, from what I understand...)- and you have to license the rights to use the 3D drivers under WM from ImgTec, much like you would with WM from MS, I don't think you're going to see that happening.

 

[peca]

Svartalf: I agree, it was just idea. It comes from my knowledge situation around me. I'm developer in small firm and develop agriculture and map SW for desktop PC (in Deplhi7 to be exactly) with MS Windows. And now we are switching to .NET platform for easy PDA development. That is what my idea come from. Maybe, if MONO will be ported and have good .NET CF compatibility, is whole unimportant.

You are right, that if factory equipped device reach users needs, there no importance of used OS. This mean, if user don't need install anything else. But if he could, then OS does mater. Maybe it is not about OS but about "platform", where platform mean something like XUL, .NET (mono), python,... "application runtime environment".

I buy Pandora anyway, even if my wife rude, but I'll be more happy, when I could take it to my boss and say "Look, it's amazing. Some really good for our customers."

OK, I'll take care about MONO porting information (as I do know nothing about it), or about crosscompiling form C# in MS Visual Studio 2008 pro.

 

[sindbad]

C# compiles to .net bytecode (they call it CIL i think) so no crosscompilation is needed. Mono has an ARM jit backend. Go check it out (it works on windows just fine), along with MoMA.

 

[gargo]

QUOTE
If that were the case, the eeePC wouldn't have sold over a MILLION units, all using Xandros.
Here's a bit of reality for you. Business users, on a mobile device, don't give a flip about what it's running as long as it does what it needs to. If what you say was the case, why is it that WM devices haven't made anywhere near the penetration, nor have any of the Windows based MIDs, than what MS would like to have- or like for you to believe they have.

I see you haven't even see eeePC. In our country for example almost all of these machines has an installed WindowsXP. People even buy these notebooks with linux and install Windows on it.
Now I think, that set "Pandora"+"Windows" will be very expensive, and you are afraid of it, because Pandora without Windows would cost nearly 350$ (when you will send it to users), and eeePC cost 400$ now and will become cheaper, and so you are afraid of that fact, that Pandora will be too expensive, but it is already expensive and you can't change its cost. You think, it will be better to use Linux at least first time, because it is cheaper for you and if developers will choose between Linux and Windows, most of them would choose Windows, and so you will never get all necessary drivers for Linux on Pandora.

P.S. And if you think Windows is very expensive, why people must not choose between OS? Why do you say nothing for example about MenuetOs or KolibriOS?

 

[plopperz]

Your post annoys me so much that I don't even know where to start.




This device was designed to be open.
Windows isn't open, therefore defeating the purpose.

The Pandora, as you said, is already very expensive, and if it gets much more expensive, I won't buy it.

If I had the choice, I'd pick Linux over Windows any day.

What I hear you saying is "Let's increase the price, and add something that will cause no one to buy it" Because that's a good idea.

If I wanted to use Window$ (yes, I just did that) I'd buy any other UMPC.

Why exactly do you want Windows in the first place, do you honestly think your regular PC apps will work on it?

Hell, if you want to increase the price for something as ridiculous as that, make it something useful, let's ask Apple to port OS X .


I'm sure somebody'll port some other OS' anyway.

 

[EvilDragon]

if developers will choose between Linux and Windows, most of them would choose Windows, and so you will never get all necessary drivers for Linux on Pandora.

Well, I would've agreed a few years ago... nowadays, as Vista has been released, more and more users are switching over to Linux.
And I do know why, if I take a look at Vista. If we take the bugs and the weird wizards, etc. aside, it already has been outdated when it has been released.
I mean, it needs a recent PC to run. ALL recent PCs do run in 64bit, supporting a LOT of memory.
WinXP 64bit was a failure. Users did not use it as there weren't many drivers available at all. If Microsoft would've made Vista 64bit only, hardware developers would've released 64bit drivers.
Now with Vista, we've got the same problem again: Not many drivers for the 64bit version and the 32bit version can't even use more than 4GB memory...
Linux runs pretty well in 64bit with more memory and even supports a lot of hardware and even most Windows software... more and more people are switching over...

Anyway, let's not become offtopic, as we're talking about Windows CE here.
I clearly have no idea why anybody would wand WinCE on the Pandora. WinCE doesn't run ANY Windows applications, so it isn't useful for that - and it is slow as hell.
I've got a Toshiba G900, a Smartphone with WinCE, Intel XScale 520 MHz processor and 800x480 resolution.
Switching from Portrait to landscape view takes about 3 - 5 seconds. Starting minimo (mini-mozilla) takes about 20 seconds... it's even too slow to use the keyboard properly. While typing, it misses button presses because I type too fast. I haven't been able to run any decent emulator fast enough to have fun playing... and that's with a 520MHz ARM processor.

I can't see how this could help the Pandora... it would hurt it more, because people would say it's slow and sluggish..

 

[MWeston]

Are there people on this forum currently developing for WinCE (or Windows Mobile I guess)?

I have only downloaded the trial kit a while back just to play around, but I have no experience really using it. My understanding is that it is a closed system. If you want source code, you pay the license and sign the confidentiality agreements. Then you use their SDK to develop applications to run on the hardware once a BSP is established for your device variation. Is this accurate?

If so, how the heck does the Gizmondo plan on being open source using Windows Mobile 5 (or 6?)? Does Microsoft offer a free SDK or maybe Gizmondo pays the licensing on each unit so customers can have the toolkit? If that is the case, I'd really like to see them sell it for $99 as they suggest. Good luck on that one! :rolleyes:

I like Linux because all existing GP2X software can easily be ported, not to mention any Linux application originating on the PC or anywhere really.

 

[Squidge]

You download the WinCE BSP for your processor, write the drivers and test. When ready, you pay the appropriate fees and royalties and get a license to distribute.

Microsoft offers a free development environment for download (SDK + Editor + Compiler + Debugger, etc) to write applications, royalty free. This can optionally do security as well (ie, only allow trusted executables to run by signing them with a private key).

So, yes, Gizmondo needs to pay a royalty on every device they sell, if it contains a Microsoft OS.

 

[Svartalf]

I see you haven't even see eeePC.

Really... Guess this little black thing's a figment of my imagination, then...

(Hint: I OWN one. Bought it a couple of weeks back as a Father's Day present to myself. The XP version's slower, etc. Micro Center sells nothing but the Linux ones and they haven't been able to keep them in stock, getting something like 16+ of them every 3 weeks or so.)

I can't see how this could help the Pandora... it would hurt it more, because people would say it's slow and sluggish..

More expensive, slower, heh...

In this case, I'd say it's a matter of someone thinking that WM is "easier" solely because they're used to Windows or WM programming. If all you have is a hammer...

[edit] gargo, this is not picking on you, per se, this is an observation from an old salt in the embedded space... [/edit]

And in reality, developers choosing Windows or Linux- in the embedded space, they really don't like WM except in the Smartphone and PDA spaces, and Linux and Symbian are mopping up the floor with WM in the smartphone space in places other than the US.

 

[Sphinxter]

Are there people on this forum currently developing for WinCE (or Windows Mobile I guess)?

I have only downloaded the trial kit a while back just to play around, but I have no experience really using it. My understanding is that it is a closed system. If you want source code, you pay the license and sign the confidentiality agreements. Then you use their SDK to develop applications to run on the hardware once a BSP is established for your device variation. Is this accurate?

If so, how the heck does the Gizmondo plan on being open source using Windows Mobile 5 (or 6?)? Does Microsoft offer a free SDK or maybe Gizmondo pays the licensing on each unit so customers can have the toolkit? If that is the case, I'd really like to see them sell it for $99 as they suggest. Good luck on that one! :rolleyes:

I like Linux because all existing GP2X software can easily be ported, not to mention any Linux application originating on the PC or anywhere really.

I was building a linux web device once and got yanked into this meeting, there was a MS pre-sales engineer and a sales manager playing the old anything for a win game, trying to queer the reqs to fit, lose the w3c compatibility, re-write the app for ie5 javascript etc. They had a conference call, the voice identified itself as Tom from viewsonic. Claimed they could have a case in soft plastic in only a month, few other wild ones and the speaker box intones, "Linux is not free, work with us, we can make Microsoft free". I let it run it's course before telling them wince won't run on a tm-400, they were offering trade-ins when I left. I think it's pretty safe to assume reality has just not shown it's ugly head at gizmondo yet.

 

[Svartalf]

Claimed they could have a case in soft plastic in only a month, few other wild ones and the speaker box intones, "Linux is not free, work with us, we can make Microsoft free".

That, my friend, is rich- and if you had a recording of it that could be connected to a MS rep, that would be concrete proof of a Lanham Act violation. Damn shame you don't have one. I would love to tie 'em up with one more consequence of their actions.

 

[randomhack]

Microsoft offers a free development environment for download (SDK + Editor + Compiler + Debugger, etc) to write applications, royalty free. This can optionally do security as well (ie, only allow trusted executables to run by signing them with a private key).

Hmm I am confused. Does MS offer free SDK to third party application developers for CE? For example, can I (a third party not related to the OS developer/device maker) just download the SDK for CE?
If I understand correctly, the CE SDK is free (or maybe comes with) if you have Visual Studio license but is not free for express editions.