About Pyra's Debian i18n

Discussion in 'Pyra OS (Debian GNU/Linux)' started by mgdesigner, May 6, 2016.

  1. rygD

    rygD Nihilistic Mystic

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    Indeed. ED wanted to improve the look and feel of the keyboard for the Pyra. I can hardly wait to try it.
     
  2. ible

    ible professional vim user

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    just know that the symbols will have to fit on wider, but less tall buttons (see the spoiler below for a sense of it). it was a lot of fun working on the keyboard, though, so if you come up with something i'm interested in seeing it!

    [​IMG]
     
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  3. rygD

    rygD Nihilistic Mystic

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    The Pyra keys are about the size of the top row of keys on the Pandora.
     
  4. Grench

    Grench Forum Addict!

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    I use a Chinese IBM ultranav keyboard - mine is a stand alone with numeric pad. Part number 41A5094. The English characters are very clear and easy to differentiate from the Chinese characters. The IBM Ultranav portable is a fantastic keyboard. Good luck finding one with a numeric pad built in for less than $200. They have become unobtanium.

    Where Hong Kong was a British territory for so many years - and became a major business center prior to it's return to China, and China has multiple languages and dialects, a portion of Chinese business gets transacted in English. So - retaining the English symbols would be critical.

    To shift to alternate Chinese (or other language) character modes, we have a 5th modifier key that is currently unbound. The Left and Right Pyra keys. One of them is located at the bottom of the center stack between the nubs, the other is the lid switch. Using the Pyra key (center one) plus (to be assigned) or Fn+Pyra+(to be assigned) could completely toggle the mode of the rest of the keyboard to an entirely different symbol set.

    As for printing the symbols on key mats, let ED get some production out the door then inquire what it would cost to create a custom printed mat with the additional symbols on it. Going from 2 color printing to 5 color printing and a small print & production order might be expensive.
    White = English
    Orange = Fn
    Green, Blue, Red as shown on the IBM Chinese keyboard example.

    I suggest leaving all of the existing symbols mapped and kept exactly as they are on the production Pyra though (just printed smaller) and only adding additional symbols. Otherwise it could be a support nightmare. Still, this is a conversation to have months from now.
     
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  5. rygD

    rygD Nihilistic Mystic

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    I don't think 5 characters will fit on each key in a legible way. I need to look at the prototype keyboard again.

    Maybe it is better to go with an overlay?
     
  6. Grench

    Grench Forum Addict!

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    There already is one key with 10 characters on it and it appears to be perfectly legible.
    https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/threads/finalizing-everything.77289/

    If this fits:
    START
    Ctrl

    Then This should too:
    #_#
    #^#
    Where _ and ^ combined are a middle 'normal' sized character in the 'START' font size and the four # positions are in the 'Ctrl' font size. Each of the # keys would differ in color.

    We had that discussion in the keyboard threads. There really IS plenty of room for more than 2 symbols per key.
     
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  7. rygD

    rygD Nihilistic Mystic

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    Seems you are right. If they would be legible in the smaller size, might as well try. It would probably be better than characters of the same size on an overlay that isn't backlit.
     
  8. lukey

    lukey Rare Species

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    There are still these USR1/2 Keys that could be used to switch between Chinese/Standard KB Layout
     
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  9. pyrat

    pyrat Member

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    [QUOTE="Grench, post: 1378501, member: 15286"
    As for printing the symbols on key mats, let ED get some production out the door then inquire what it would cost to create a custom printed mat with the additional symbols on it. Going from 2 color printing to 5 color printing and a small print & production order might be expensive.
    [/QUOTE]

    I feel late to the party and a bit lost. I've never used a Pandora, and I've missed many threads here. I've searched the forum a little, but haven't fully understood all.

    How small scale could keyboard personalisation be done ? Will it be possible for users to dismantle the keyboard and place stickers above the black interior keys but bellow the transparent caps (so that they don't come away).
    Or is this a lot of work or likely to damage the hardware ?

    I'm interested in office use on the go for Catalan/Occitan. I'm used to Spanish keyboards. I'm not sure what the final layout is. Should i trust the wiki ?
    I miss one touch dead keys for dead and grave acute and dieresis (not sure where to put them, with less keys than a desktop keyboard) and there's like 10 12 caracters I don't need.

    But I guess I should wait to try and get used because maybe the key combinations are not so difficult/slow.
    Also, how do the mouse buttons work ? left and rigth are generated by pressing the nubs. To select text I'd keep the right nub pressed and move the left nub ?
    And the mouse middle button (paste)?
     
  10. slaeshjag

    slaeshjag ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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    The clear plastic caps on the keymat are glued, so removing them will be somewhat troublesome.

    (as for middle mouse button press, most X-servers emulate that if you press both left and right at the same time)
     
  11. pyrat

    pyrat Member

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    Thank you, that basically rules out my idea. There's likely too few people interested in my keyboard to get it done at any factory.
    But I really should try the keyboard to think what I like it. It's not clear to me what actions are easier/faster without the experience
    with similar devices.

    Yes, but I always find it inconvenient. I try to get always 3 button mice, even if it's on the scroll whel. I guess I'll somehow remap Home or End or something.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jun 3, 2016, Original Post Date: Jun 3, 2016 ---
    Also. Is it ok to have [o ä] on one key and [i ö] on another ? I would think it made more sense to have ö with o, like ü is with u. Then i could go with ä.
    I have no idea of German language or keyboards, I gues there may be a reason, just looks odd to my ignorance.
     
  12. slaeshjag

    slaeshjag ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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    Keyboard layout (as in, what's printed on it) is fixed afaik. The reson äößü have the location they have, is because that's roughly where they are on a full size german keyboard. It's probably not up for debate anyway. In case you missed it, there was about 10k posts (no exageration) made debating/arguing/shitposting about the keyboard layout, we're through that now.
     
  13. pyrat

    pyrat Member

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    OK, ok. Sorry. Just trying to understand. I didn't want to step in any toes. Thanks all for that work back then.
     
  14. Neelix

    Neelix Insecticidal Maniac

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    For what it's worth I asked ED about the cost of producing the keymat for the the Pyra. My understanding is that the MOQ for the keymats is 1000 units, and that would cost about 10000€.

    -Neelix
     
  15. Grench

    Grench Forum Addict!

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    As far as I know the keyboard discussions are done. Explanations of why it is as it is should be OK, so long as we restrict to that and not try to argue for changes or different options.

    Spanish language support - all European languages support with full-on diacritics really - was given consideration in a few of the proposals. There was loud backlash to those claiming that they made the keyboard too difficult to use or too confusing. To get to that level of support required keys with 3+ printed symbols and for English speakers to ignore top-level printed characters that they would not recognize or use.

    There were language polls where it was clear that the majority of prospective Pyra users spoke English, German and French. It was decided that the eventual layout should cater first to English then add German support and a nod to make French usable. French actually came out more usable than it is on a standard French keyboard - which is another discussion.

    Some distinction or note should be made, though, that what is printed on the keys in no way limits the capabilities of the keyboard itself. Those symbols will be the default actions of those keys and combinations, but there is nothing stopping an end user from re-mapping existing symbol keys/combinations to something else.

    The Pyra has multiple modifier keys.
    Left shift, Right shift. One is on a shoulder, one is on the main keypad.
    Left Ctrl, Right Ctrl. One is on a shoulder, one is on the main keypad.
    Left Alt, Right Alt. One is on a shoulder, one is on the main keypad.
    Left Fn, Right Fn. One is on a shoulder, one is on the main keypad.
    Left Pyra/Super. Right Pyra/Super. One is on the center keyboard column, one is the screen/lid magnetic switch.

    In general practice and default mapping, left shift and right shift will perform the same function. However, if you choose to, Lshift+key could be different from Rshift+key.

    Modifiers may be chorded. Using the shoulder buttons, it should be easy to 'mash' combinations of shift+alt+ctrl+Fn. Just using those without Super or creating distinctions between left-right versions of each modifier, those plus any 'normal' key can result in 2^4 different capabilities that can be mapped. 2*2*2*2 = 16.

    Theoretically if you had fingers like an octopus, made distinct mappings to left/right versions of each modifier and a magnet to activate the hall sensor for the lid switch, those combinations can expand to a theoretical maximum of 2^10 different results with chorded modifiers and a single 'normal' key. 2^10 = 1024.

    If you don't want or need the German vowels, you can software re-map them and simply memorize what you mapped there. If you need more variations than that, there is a lot of space on the Fn+Shift+key layer and Super+key is almost 'empty'. With Fn and Shift on the shoulders, chording those then pressing a 'normal' key should be very easy.

    The press-nub-mouse-buttons may seem a bit odd. Tying back to the Pandora, the left nub is the mouse movement. The nubs can either click OR move, not click and move. So - if the left nub is moving the mouse, the right nub-press needs to be the left mouse button to enable click and drag. Left nub click then becomes right mouse button - which generally brings up menus. @_wb_ also came up with a concept whereby the shoulders could be used for both the modifiers and mouse buttons. It may be a possible software feature expansion if someone decides to build it.

    Yes, the keyboard is a compromise through thousands of posts arguing every key's mapping and functionality in fine detail. What came out of that is pretty darn good. I'm sure everyone can find changes that they would want to make in order for it to be better for them, but this needed to be one key mat to service as many as possible while confusing as few as possible.
     
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  16. directive0

    directive0 Very Active Member

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    Oh how I wish I could believe that.
     
  17. rygD

    rygD Nihilistic Mystic

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    Official keyboard discussions are done for now, as the final layout has been decided.

    If sales go well and there is enough demand additional discussion about key mats for languages that are not optimally supported could happen.
     

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