Internal SATA or mSATA drive

[Amnykon]

An internal SATA drive would:

• Allow expandable hard drive space.
• Increase the thickness and set the minimum width to 2.5 inches.
• The P2 case could be designed to allow for easy swap of the drives, making them exchangeable. This might remove the requirement to have 2 SD slots.
• Allow for both SSD and HDD. (HDD is cheaper, slower, and uses more battery)

Another alternate would be an mSATA drive.

• Probably located behind the battery. Would only be exchangeable if the battery is removed.
• Allow expandable hard drive space.
• Have less impact on thickness.
• Might remove the need for other internal memory.
   

 

[_jr_]

I like as few mechanical parts as possible. Therefore I wouldn't buy a version with a hard drive (or a fan).


What exactly is wrong with SD cards again?

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

Bad Idea!  SD cards are the way to go.

 

[Amnykon]

I agree that a SATA drive would be a bad idea, but what about an optional mSATA card instead of the 512MB of NAND memory?

 

[Asiyura]

This has been explained a few times everywhere on the boards, but here it is again :

NAND is part of the same chip as the RAM, that chip is soldered on top of the CPU it's called Package on Package (PoP). Making the CPU + PoP Memory chip a System on a Chip (SoC).

It allows RAM and NAND to take no space on the mainboard.

Now, if we were to add mSata option to a pandora-sized device, it would take a shitload of space on the mainboard. Even if mSata cards seems small (in laptops, netbook, etc.), when talking about palmtop-sized devices, they're awfully large.

EDIT : If we were able to get some space on the mainboard, eMMC would probably be a better choice for internal memory IMHO.

 

[ekianjo]

EDIT : If we were able to get some space on the mainboard, eMMC would probably be a better choice for internal memory IMHO.

Yeah, totally agree for eMMC here.

 

[Grench]

This has been explained a few times everywhere on the boards, but here it is again :


NAND is part of the same chip as the RAM, that chip is soldered on top of the CPU it's called Package on Package (PoP). Making the CPU + PoP Memory chip a System on a Chip (SoC).


It allows RAM and NAND to take no space on the mainboard.


Now, if we were to add mSata option to a pandora-sized device, it would take a shitload of space on the mainboard. Even if mSata cards seems small (in laptops, netbook, etc.), when talking about palmtop-sized devices, they're awfully large.


EDIT : If we were able to get some space on the mainboard, eMMC would probably be a better choice for internal memory IMHO.

IMHO we'd be best off looking at 2,3 or 4GB RAM and 4 to 8 GB NAND on the PoP package and save board space for two SD based media slots.  If we decide to remove the NAND from the PoP and replace it with a microSD internally - OK if we have the space.  But we should still count on two exposed slots.

 

[Asiyura]

microSD internally

What are you talking about?eMMC aren't internal microSD card, they're high speed and high density memory chips, far faster than SD cards.

The physical size of eMMC BGA chips is 11.5mmx13mm (smaller than a 15×11mm µSD card, and that's without the µSD slot), they can go from 4Go to 128Go with the same form factor/pinout. EDIT: They're also far faster than class 10 SD cards (I can't say if sources I've found are reliable, but they talk of 250Mo/s reading and 90Mo/s writing)

I never said anything about removing PoP NAND or anything related to that.

I just said that I would rather have a eMMC chip than a Sata/mSata connector taking much space on the board, with device draining much more the battery and taking far more space in the case.

 

[thatgui]

microSD internally

What are you talking about?

I guess he is reffering to an idea that was discussed several months ago, where the internal nand would be replaced by a microSD slot placed to be accessible via the battery compartment. The idea was to have an easily expandable system drive, while keeping the costs down. The idea was widely accepted (in terms of the members frequently engageing in discussion in this forum section) and even got "this could work out" comment from Ed. That was before eMMC was brought onto the table though.

 

[Exophase]

PoP NAND is not really something most memory manufacturers make a lot of anymore. Don't expect good options to be available for Pandora 2.

 

[Grench]

microSD internally

What are you talking about?
eMMC aren't internal microSD card, they're high speed and high density memory chips, far faster than SD cards.


The physical size of eMMC BGA chips is 11.5mmx13mm (smaller than a 15×11mm µSD card, and that's without the µSD slot), they can go from 4Go to 128Go with the same form factor/pinout. EDIT: They're also far faster than class 10 SD cards (I can't say if sources I've found are reliable, but they talk of 250Mo/s reading and 90Mo/s writing)


I never said anything about removing PoP NAND or anything related to that.


I just said that I would rather have a eMMC chip than a Sata/mSata connector taking much space on the board, with device draining much more the battery and taking far more space in the case.

Full size SD memory can be faster than that already.

http://www.dpreview.com/news/2013/07/16/Toshiba-Exceria-Pro-fastest-SD-cards-UHS-II-up-to-240MBs-write

microSD memory is fast enough to be very usable.

http://www.androidcentral.com/sandisk-releases-world-s-fastest-64gb-microsdxc-card

My preference would be to have a 3 SD device with two external slots and one internal - all full size, but I also realize that there may not be room for that 'ideal' situation.

On-board memory solutions have a drawback of being less flexible after purchase.  Cards allow the end user to pull out whatever cheap card the device ships with (for base functionality) and replace it with faster and/or higher capacity units to suit their needs.  This potentially cuts the production costs a bit while opening up capability.

The catch to a card based solution is making sure that the controller used for the cards is capable of ludicrous speeds to keep up with evolving tech.  The existing Pandora was capable of 2-3 times the data rate that the fastest cards could handle at the time it was designed.   Theoretical 21MB/s, realistic 17.5MB/s.  I think that the Pandora successor should be aiming for capabilities in the range of 300-500MB/s on the card bus.

We're talking about specs for a palm-top computer that not so long ago would have been classified as a supercomputer.

They've gone plaid!

 

[Binky]

What's the point of an internal SD slot?

You either need extra board space to slide the card out, or a fancy hinged slot - pandora-owners can be trusted to to accidentally remove SD cards, I think

I say:

• fullSDXC slot
• Another fullSDXC slot
• MicroSDXC slot

in descending order of importance

 

[WizardStan]

What's the point of an internal SD slot?

It's a NAND replacement. The only time it will ever be removed (properly) is after powering down. Failing to shut down before removing it will have very bad consequences. If it's exposed you risk accidental removal, plus other minor hazards like crud getting into it. An external SD slot also needs a lock/eject mechanism for safety whereas an internal slot can be held in place by friction and protected by the battery making it minimally larger than the card itself. Plus having it exposed is just more space being taken up around the case which is at least aesthetically displeasing but could also be used for other things.The internal microSD slot suggestion was always on top of the existing 2 external full SD slots, and only if we couldn't do better due to space restrictions.

 

[Binky]

It's a NAND replacement. The only time it will ever be removed (properly) is after powering down.

Plenty of people boot from an SD card with the existing pandora, and since full-size cards are necessarily better than micro- ones (due to extra volume) I can see that continuing with a P2.

This could be especially true if people want to use conventional Linux distros.

If people are using one of the full-size cards for boot, they may well want convenient access to the microSD slot

 

[WizardStan]

they may well want convenient access to the microSD slot

Maybe they will, but they're in the minority. It's still better for the majority if the card on which the OS is stored is protected.I mean, it's not like it'd be hard to get at, nor is there any major benefit to it being exposed: you still need to make an effort and shut down before removing the card whether it is exposed or hidden, popping the battery cover is just a minor step in the process.

 

[Asiyura]

Full size SD memory can be faster than that already.

http://www.dpreview.com/news/2013/07/16/Toshiba-Exceria-Pro-fastest-SD-cards-UHS-II-up-to-240MBs-write

microSD memory is fast enough to be very usable.

http://www.androidcentral.com/sandisk-releases-world-s-fastest-64gb-microsdxc-card

My preference would be to have a 3 SD device with two external slots and one internal - all full size, but I also realize that there may not be room for that 'ideal' situation.

On-board memory solutions have a drawback of being less flexible after purchase.  Cards allow the end user to pull out whatever cheap card the device ships with (for base functionality) and replace it with faster and/or higher capacity units to suit their needs.  This potentially cuts the production costs a bit while opening up capability.

The catch to a card based solution is making sure that the controller used for the cards is capable of ludicrous speeds to keep up with evolving tech.  The existing Pandora was capable of 2-3 times the data rate that the fastest cards could handle at the time it was designed.   Theoretical 21MB/s, realistic 17.5MB/s.  I think that the Pandora successor should be aiming for capabilities in the range of 300-500MB/s on the card bus.

We're talking about specs for a palm-top computer that not so long ago would have been classified as a supercomputer.

They've gone plaid!

To be honest I don't care if it's an eMMC chip or a µSD slot we use as OS memory. What I said was that I would rather have a eMMC chip than SATA/mSATA connector