Finger Based Ui

[dbrodie]

Just got my order confirmed today(!!) and was wondering about UIs that don't require a stylus.
I know that there are quite a few possible UI's going to be possible on the Pandora, but I was wondering what people thought about the availability of finger based ones (that don't require a stylus).
Android should be OK, and so should Mer (the community replacement for maemo). I am not sure if maemo will work, since it has quite a few closed source modules. Are there any more I am missing?

I am just worried that it wont be as comfortable to use non-stylus UIs, because of the clamshell form. I am also worried about the brightness/responsiveness of the touchscreen compared to similar devices. Do you guys think you will use fingers alot or is the Pandora more of a stylus-centric device?

 

[chole]

The type of touch screen that uses styli is different from the type that uses fingertips. The most you could do is use your fingernails, which would work in the same manner as a stylus. So it is a matter of completely different hardware being used and not a matter of changing the software interface. An iPhone-style screen does not quite offer the precision that people were looking for when the Pandora's specs were being initially discussed (I guess).

That said, I did the fingernail thing on pretty much all my previous touchscreen devices. Palms and Zaurii were really easy to use in this manner, imho.

 

[-Tj-]

I personally rather have a stylus-based UI over a finger-friendly one because I like having a lot of info on the screen. Finger-based UIs tend to have larger fonts and icons, and not nearly as much info on-screen as a stylus-based one.

I've never owned a DS, but I've played with other peoples', and I've rarely used my fingers to play. The two WinMo phones I've had, I've used my fingers a lot, but that was mostly because I was either one-handing it, or wasn't doing anything that needed any kind of accuracy. For everything else, I much prefer stylus, since fingers tend to block a lot of the screen during use and aren't very accurate. There were many occasions where I've nearly pulled out my hair trying to select a specific place for the cursor during text editing, or trying to select the right link in a browser... instead, I pulled out the stylus.

I think the clamshell form factor kinda just lends itself to stylus use, but honestly I won't be able to tell till I have Pandora in-hand. The DS is good in the touch screen area because the main touch panel is on the part that is held most securely in the hand or on the table. I've never used the DSi's 2nd touch screen, so I can't say with certainty, but on my Tablet PC, using the stylus on the screen is annoying. The screen wobbles or leans as I press on it, so I have to hold it with my 2nd hand; something I don't like to do or do often.

 

[WizardStan]

The type of touch screen that uses styli is different from the type that uses fingertips. The most you could do is use your fingernails, which would work in the same manner as a stylus. So it is a matter of completely different hardware being used and not a matter of changing the software interface. An iPhone-style screen does not quite offer the precision that people were looking for when the Pandora's specs were being initially discussed (I guess).

It's little to do with the hardware in this case. You can very easily use your fingers to press a resistive (stylus) screen. It's less accurate than a stylus because you're pressing with your entire finger and it could activate anywhere within that radius. If the UI is designed with finger sized buttons (which is what dbrodie is talking about), then there's no problem.
To answer the question, there will be two interfaces pre-installed: a very simple one that just executes single apps, not unlike the DS or PSP interface, and a more robust full desktop environment. You can switch between the two at will to suit your mood or style. I don't know about the simplified interface being developed, but I do know that the more complex full environment supports themes that allow you to change icon and menu sizes, which makes it very finger friendly.

 

[dbrodie]

Thanks WizardStan, that is more-or-less what I meant, but it goes farther then just button sizes. I mean you don't think it makes a difference until you try something like scrolling a list of games. On a good UI you can just put your finger on th emiddle of the list and drag down and it will scroll. On a bad ui that depends heavily on the stylus you need to pinpoint to the tiny scrollbar on the right and drag it. Good luck doing that with your finger.

Now, I am not expecting pandora to make a brand new UI, there are quite a few descent ones already. I will probably install android or mer because I would like a more comfortable UI. When I get the unit I might whip up something small in python and clutter just to see how it is. (Though I wounder how harmful to the battery it would be to have the 'Home Screen' written in python...)

 

[Rockthesmurf]

(Though I wounder how harmful to the battery it would be to have the 'Home Screen' written in python...)

Should be fine as long as you write your energy saving mode code in C...

Steve

 

[Gary13579]

I will probably install android or mer because I would like a more comfortable UI.

You would be butchering your Pandora to install Android on it. Android is designed around Java applications, there'd be no way to launch raw ELFs (PSX emulator, SNES, etc) from it without some major tweaking. You *might* be able to do it from a terminal window in Android... but it'd still be messy. In Android, you'd mostly be limited to the apps written using the Dalvik VM, which is just now managing to get NES games running at full speed. If you want anything newer, tough.

Edit: it'll be really interesting to see how Chrome OS does on the Pandora, however. Let's just hope Google doesn't keep it too x86 specific...

 

[musicalwoods]

I believe that OP is using E17 (Enlightenment) as their main desktop environment. That DE has a UI mode called Illume which is supposed to be a very finger-friendly UI.

EDIT: Here are some videos of Illume. Hopefully it progresses nicely in time.

 

[WizardStan]

You would be butchering your Pandora to install Android on it. Android is designed around Java applications, there'd be no way to launch raw ELFs (PSX emulator, SNES, etc) from it without some major tweaking. You *might* be able to do it from a terminal window in Android... but it'd still be messy. In Android, you'd mostly be limited to the apps written using the Dalvik VM, which is just now managing to get NES games running at full speed. If you want anything newer, tough.

Edit: it'll be really interesting to see how Chrome OS does on the Pandora, however. Let's just hope Google doesn't keep it too x86 specific...

uh... you downplayed an OS built around Java apps, only to turn around and encourage an OS built around web apps? You sir, have confused me.

 

[musicalwoods]

Well, I'm going to be testing any OS that gets ported over! I'm a freak like that.

I'm most excited about Mer/Ubuntu 9.10 MID, as the developers have UMPCs/MIDs in mind while working on it, not phones (Maemo 5, Android).

[complete speculation]
I'm betting Chrome will heavily rely on Webkit+Google Gears APIs and will have every application in the web browser userspace. Network management will be a tab, documents will be Google Docs in offline mode, multimedia will be controlled with a Web UI tied into a cli backend, file management will be just another tab, etc.

The system won't even pretend to act like a regular Linux OS and won't use an X server. It'll use whatever they designed for Android.
[/complete speculation]

 

[kloplop321]

I don't see how it would be effective to use the touch screen with fingers due to it being on the top half and not the bottom half of the clam shell; unless you like make it rotate the display by 180..

 

[Gary13579]

You would be butchering your Pandora to install Android on it. Android is designed around Java applications, there'd be no way to launch raw ELFs (PSX emulator, SNES, etc) from it without some major tweaking. You *might* be able to do it from a terminal window in Android... but it'd still be messy. In Android, you'd mostly be limited to the apps written using the Dalvik VM, which is just now managing to get NES games running at full speed. If you want anything newer, tough.

Edit: it'll be really interesting to see how Chrome OS does on the Pandora, however. Let's just hope Google doesn't keep it too x86 specific...

uh... you downplayed an OS built around Java apps, only to turn around and encourage an OS built around web apps? You sir, have confused me.

Chrome OS will have support for running ELF applications. At least, as far as I'm aware. Google has gotten support from the Wine developers to be included in the OS. Why would they include Wine support, if it's *only* for web applications?

Pay attention to the far bottom right, it's quite clearly the Wine logo.

And I was not downplaying Android, I love it and use it daily on my phone. But the point is, it would not be well suited for the Pandora, as you'd lose most of the functionality of Pandora and not gain much from it (most of the Android apps are quite bad, or are phone specific, such as requiring camera/GPS).

I don't see how it would be effective to use the touch screen with fingers due to it being on the top half and not the bottom half of the clam shell; unless you like make it rotate the display by 180..

You mean like a tablet? This was discussed in the wiki, they couldn't do it due to patents.

It would be an awesome design, though... I think I'd look a bit tacky with the way the speakers are.

 

[kloplop321]

I don't see how it would be effective to use the touch screen with fingers due to it being on the top half and not the bottom half of the clam shell; unless you like make it rotate the display by 180..

You mean like a tablet? This was discussed in the wiki, they couldn't do it due to patents.

It would be an awesome design, though... I think I'd look a bit tacky with the way the speakers are.

well, no. more like holding it upside down.

 

[WizardStan]

Chrome OS will have support for running ELF applications.

I didn't say it wouldn't. It's built on top of Linux. That doesn't change the fact that it is still built around the web browser: the goal was to give an OS that will boot and get you on the net and into email as fast as possible. Last I read it was to be heavily tied with the Google docs. It is an OS built around a web browser, there is no avoiding that fact.

And I was not downplaying Android

Yes you did. Downplaying something is just "suggesting against", except it only takes one word to say. You said you thought Android would be terrible on Pandora. That is downplaying it.

 

[Gary13579]

Chrome OS will have support for running ELF applications.

I didn't say it wouldn't. It's built on top of Linux. That doesn't change the fact that it is still built around the web browser: the goal was to give an OS that will boot and get you on the net and into email as fast as possible. Last I read it was to be heavily tied with the Google docs. It is an OS built around a web browser, there is no avoiding that fact.

And I was not downplaying Android

Yes you did. Downplaying something is just "suggesting against", except it only takes one word to say. You said you thought Android would be terrible on Pandora. That is downplaying it.

Of course it is, but what's wrong with that? The fact is it will work just as smoothly as running programs from the desktop (afaik). Android can't do that.

And I was downplaying Android on the Pandora, not Android itself. It's a great system for phones and PDA's, not for UMPCs.

 

[WizardStan]

Of course it is, but what's wrong with that? The fact is it will work just as smoothly as running programs from the desktop (afaik). Android can't do that.

Nothings inherently wrong with it, just as there's nothing inherently wrong with building an OS around a JVM. That's why I said you confuse me: you rejected one form of abstraction for the Pandora in favour of a different (as yet unproven, I might add) layer of abstraction

 

[valhalla]

I would like a more comfortable UI. When I get the unit I might whip up something small in python and clutter just to see how it is. (Though I wounder how harmful to the battery it would be to have the 'Home Screen' written in python...)

They did it with the OLPC: their interface is written in python and it does work without massive battery problems. Actually, I've tried it on my netbook with Sugar on a Stick and I didn't notice big differences from my standard icewm interface.

 

[dbrodie]

[complete speculation]
I'm betting Chrome will heavily rely on Webkit+Google Gears APIs and will have every application in the web browser userspace. Network management will be a tab, documents will be Google Docs in offline mode, multimedia will be controlled with a Web UI tied into a cli backend, file management will be just another tab, etc.

The system won't even pretend to act like a regular Linux OS and won't use an X server. It'll use whatever they designed for Android.
[/complete speculation]

Actually, I am pretty sure the the Chrome OS will be a google version of Moblin. I see no reason not to use an X server etc...

Ragarding Android on the Pandora, well Android supports loading native code, it just "prefers" its java-list thing. Though there are a few laptops that come with android running on them as a secondary OS, so shouldn't Andorid at least have some mode for a more MID mode?

Maybe someone will port Moblin to arm and we could use that? (Shouldn't be too difficult, all of the libraries should work, and there is support for OpenGL ES)

@valhalla: Thats a good point, if there is no heavy number crunching it should be ok...