Demanding refund after paying Pandora in full to ED

[Timstertoo]

I was wondering. What if I donate the remainder between what I've paid now and the community donation. 

So I've paid € 200,- (and € 41,- VAT on top of that) and I've donated € 10,- so at this point I owe the community € 90,- I also paid the full amount for the tv out cable which I also ordered from Craig. I think there was some reduction from ED if you already ordered it but I wanted him to at least make a couple of € for taking the time and effort to send me the Pandora.

As soon as I've donated that € 90,- I've pretty much settled up my debt and funded my own Pandora.

Wouldn't it be fair that I demanded a refund of Craig of the money I gave him and got nothing in return for? Basically he sent me nothing. It's been mentioned time and again that it are two different companies who have nothing to do with each other and everything ED does he does out of kindness and it's seperate from Craig. I figure that goes both ways then. And end of the day, I paid ED for my own Pandora so Craig still owes my a rebirth one I paid him for. 

Also I paid for the shipping, the tv out cable and the VAT twice so if anything that  at the bare minimum should be returned by Craig seeing as it, rightfully, hasn't been covered by ED whatever way you look at it.

I know that the chance of getting anything is severely small. But I wouldn't be surprised that at a certain point with his screwing around he loses the protection a ltd gives him and claims might be applicable to his other business and private property too. (not pretending to be knowledgeble about English law but in Holland if you manage your affairs in a bad or unlawfull way also your private equity might be used to settle your debts) And at least my claim will be part of that then. Maybe we can help ED and the investors recoup some of that charity and put it towards the P2.

I have no idea about the agreements between ED and Craig concerning the remaining orders so it it would bring ED in any potential legal trouble I'll of course abandon this idea immediately. 

 

[comradekingu]

A ltd doesnt protect criminal activity. Asking for a refund is normal business practice though, and craig should honour it.

 

[levi]

Woah, what criminal offence has anyone committed?  At most you could try to argue that Craig has committed a breach of contract which is a civil offense, and I don't think you could even do that - I don't remember being convinced I would definitely get a Pandora for my money when I paid (which is why I waited until production started before I committed funds - but before nub problems put paid to Craig's programme for good).

In my opinion Craig doesn't owe me a Pandora.  Partly because I took the opportunity to upgrade from Craig to ED, but mainly because there simply were never enough of the type of Pandora I paid for to fulfil the potential preorders - the CC Pandoras.  The CC Pandora project failed, as we were warned that it might right at the start, and Craig never promised a Rebirth or 1Ghz Pandora.

If I thought it worth the fuss, I might follow up my order of a TV-out cable with him since those do exist now, but for the money it's not worth my time.

 

[thatgui]

I was wondering. What if I donate the remainder between what I've paid now and the community donation. 

...

I have no idea about the agreements between ED and Craig concerning the remaining orders so it it would bring ED in any potential legal trouble I'll of course abandon this idea immediately. 

Mmmh, I'm not sure wether this could be tricky or not:

You agreed to participate in a "resolve this situation" plan, in which craig was also involved too (he provided at least the order details). So if this gets into court this could be tricky. Or

A ltd doesnt protect criminal activity.

Do we (the community) really need to do this again ?

 

[sswam]

To be honest, and supposing that you are paying more than original price to get the pandora from ED, I think you are indeed entitled to ask for a refund. It's up to you whether you think that it's worthwhile to pursue it, or if you would kindly forgive it.

If Craig does become financially successful again by some miracle it would be reasonable to ask for your money back. Bear in mind that Craig has not actually profited from your misfortune, he has lost a lot of money too.

Personally I wouldn't worry too much about refunding the community! Accept that strange benevolence and be done with it. If you want to donate to help someone else, great.

Personally I think it would be better to donate some money to CRAIG but anyway, seems I'm not being consistent here, and he's not soliciting donations AFAIK.

 

[ShleeDragon]

He'll scrap his way out of the situation with a large personal debt.... Lose/Lose!

What people want) If ED LEAKED THE PREORDER LIST by say.. emailing all of them via CC and not BCC or something... there would be a possibility to collectively gather our resources and send him a refund notice... this would result in him jumping off a bridge.

So...... how much is a human life worth?

Hint: Craig is never going to refund you.. KILL THE UNDEAD QUEUE! STOP FEEDING THE MONSTER

 

[comradekingu]

No, and thats why i wrote a whole thing, not just that.

Edit just to balance things: Oh, the humanity. Debt and personal misfortune. Id have a single atom of sympathy if it wasnt actually at the mercy of himself. He continues to be arrogant and doesnt change anything about the way he operates.

Which is why you have to take it to a court, not apply to his sense of morale, business practice, or public relations. There is a reason you have this consideration in the first place.

 

[ShleeDragon]

I don't know..

How much debt is Craig in? $100,000 pound? How much did people lose? 300 pound?

You've lost 0.3% of a Craig.

 

[ShleeDragon]

Who cries for ED?

 

[Klumpen]

I don't know..

How much debt is Craig in? $100,000 pound? How much did people lose? 300 pound?

You've lost 0.3% of a Craig.

I guess he means personal debt like a house mortgage and not commercial debt like the units he owes people, which he probably thinks he can walk away from now, throwing up his arms saying there's nothing more he can do.

Well, if that even exists...


But since I paid all companies he hadn't paid before (parts for the second batch) and even DaveC, he shouldn't have any debts left here except for refund requests and the remaining queue.

http://boards.openpandora.org/index.php/topic/14395-new-email-from-craig-watch-out/page-6#entry279371

 

[ShleeDragon]

R&D? the original nub bankruptcy? General bullshit? CC failures?

 

[Mr_Loon]

...

Wouldn't it be fair that I demanded a refund of Craig of the money I gave him and got nothing in return for? Basically he sent me nothing. It's been mentioned time and again that it are two different companies who have nothing to do with each other and everything ED does he does out of kindness and it's seperate from Craig. I figure that goes both ways then. And end of the day, I paid ED for my own Pandora so Craig still owes my a rebirth one I paid him for. 

...

It's appreciated you're asking for advice & opinion here and not saying 'this is what I'm going to do.'

So here's my opinion :

It would not be fair or right to do this because you agreed that you'd be willing to take the option that you took and get a subsidised Pandora from ED.

If you'd paid the full retail price for a Pandora from ED then things would be different but once you make an agreement you should stick to it. a.k.a. : Two wrongs do not make a right.

Here's my advice :

Let it go & enjoy your Pandora

 

[Timstertoo]

...

Wouldn't it be fair that I demanded a refund of Craig of the money I gave him and got nothing in return for? Basically he sent me nothing. It's been mentioned time and again that it are two different companies who have nothing to do with each other and everything ED does he does out of kindness and it's seperate from Craig. I figure that goes both ways then. And end of the day, I paid ED for my own Pandora so Craig still owes my a rebirth one I paid him for. 

...

It's appreciated you're asking for advice & opinion here and not saying 'this is what I'm going to do.'

So here's my opinion :

It would not be fair or right to do this because you agreed that you'd be willing to take the option that you took and get a subsidised Pandora from ED.

If you'd paid the full retail price for a Pandora from ED then things would be different but once you make an agreement you should stick to it. a.k.a. : Two wrongs do not make a right.

Here's my advice :

Let it go & enjoy your Pandora

That's exactly the reason I put it up for opinion. I never agreed anything with Craig. In fact Craig hasn't updated me about my order at all since ages and hasn't sent a single unit probably well over a year (or even more?) while the Pandora is in production.

ED gave me an option because he felt sorry for the pre orders but at the same time made it very clear that he didn't take any responsibility for Craig's queue and this was out of his own pocket from his own company which was a seperate entity. I took that option. That has nothing to do with the agreement between Craig and me, who still has my money. 

At the same time I'm also sympathetic to your points, even when I started this thread, hence the open way of putting it. I'm certainly not about to do anything rash.

What pisses me of mostly is Craig now letting ED pay more out of pocket and at the same time selling units that a group of his pre orders would be willing to accept as there order. That is simply morally wrong. No need to rehash that, it is what it is. I felt a sense of relief when I paid the money to ED and got the shipping notice but reading the thread about Craig selling units that others have paid for just pisses me of if I think of the unfairness of the people behind me who can't pay the extra money and must feel so powerless right now. Anyone who ordered 4/5 years ago and is still on this board without a Pandora must truly care. So even though it's not really my problem anymore I feel I should also stand up for those people.

If I can queue up though with any possible claim in the future I might be able to get some of that money back and then donate it to the pre order fund. Thus maybe getting a couple more of us a Pandora, making ED a bit less of an imitation of Atlas and making it more worthwile for the investors whose role in getting things going again should not be underestimated. I've said goodbye to the money so I certainly wouldn't do it for myself and I wouldn't put any more time and effort in it besides putting up my finger if anyone wanted to know if there was still money owed from Craig and maybe pay a small fee for a group thing if anyone was inclined to start it up.

Most importantly, if ED feels this is a wrong avenue to pursue I walk away from this and never think about it again instantly. As far as I'm concerned the thread can be deleted too as to not give someone else in the future any ideas. The sole purpose would be to do something back for ED, not make his life more complicated.

 

[aatu]

@Timstertoo:
The cross-upgrade was kind of an odd arrangement. But in any case, the deal in itself was/is in the basis that you forgo the first order to conclude the other. So in my opinion, it would be wrong to ask for a refund for alternatively delivered goods. But with regards to the TV-out-cable, I'd consider it as another matter. But like said by others, certainly not worth the time with relation to the foreseeable outcome.

@Levi:
I agree with the notion that we can't yet accuse Craig as a fraud, even if he from all accounts looks like one. That would be libel. But someone (preferably a UK resident) could initiate an audit to his business, after which we would know.

But with regards to that we were warned? No we weren't. I for one ordered with the presumption that I would get a Pandora for the money I gave. I took it as a binding deal. I still consider myself as a customer, not an investor. Sure, accidents happen and nothing is certain. But that doesn't relieve Craig's company from the obligation.

@sswam:
I would strongly disagree with donating ANYTHING to Craig. We haven't seen anything back from him for a very long time, so we have no guarantees anything thrown in his way would be used for the benefit of the pre-orderers. Ok, if anything, people could consider dropping the TV-out-cable order as a donation. But only because it probably wouldn't be worth the time to actually get a refund for it.

@ShleeDragon:
I don't see the need to get collective (though wouldn't hurt, I guess). We just need one person (like said, preferably a UK resident) to initiate the authorities. But in any case, I wouldn't do this for the hope of getting something back, as all the signs seemingly lead to the company having little to no money. This would mostly be to conclude a chapter and making sure that if there was anything illegal going on, the responsible people would be accounted for. And nobody should have any bad guilt over this. If Craig is indeed operating legally, then he should have nothing to worry about.

With regards to Craig having debt:
Running a company is a risky business. He thought the chance of potential profits would outweigh the potential losses. Well, things didn't go like he wanted to in his gamble. So no, I don't feel sympathy for him. Especially because he wasted other people's money for it, too. Not to mention his general attitude for doing so (eg. lack of communication, not taking responsibility, etc.).

Oh, here's a nice analogy:
If a man goes to a casino and loses his money, then yes, some people might rightfully feel sympathy for him (though in my opinion he had it coming). Alternatively, if that same man took someone else's money and promised he would give him something for it later, but instead lost it at a casino along with his own money, after which he basically vanished from the face of the earth, then no, I certainly would't and don't feel sympathy for that man. Instead, I would consider that the other man (the one giving the money) was wronged, and would feel sympathy for him. If, on the other hand, the money was given with the understanding that the whole thing might (with a considerable chance) go horribly wrong, then the sympathy would go equally to both (though in my case: pretty much none).

 

[Klumpen]

With regards to Craig having debt:


Running a company is a risky business. He thought the chance of potential profits would outweigh the potential losses. Well, things didn't go like he wanted to in his gamble. So no, I don't feel sympathy for him. Especially because he wasted other people's money for it, too. Not to mention his general attitude for doing so (eg. lack of communication, not taking responsibility, etc.).


Oh, here's a nice analogy:


If a man goes to a casino and loses his money, then yes, some people might rightfully feel sympathy for him (though in my opinion he had it coming). Alternatively, if that same man took someone else's money and promised he would give him something for it later, but instead lost it at a casino along with his own money, after which he basically vanished from the face of the earth, then no, I certainly would't and don't feel sympathy for that man. Instead, I would consider that the other man (the one giving the money) was wronged, and would feel sympathy for him. If, on the other hand, the money was given with the understanding that the whole thing might (with a considerable chance) go horribly wrong, then the sympathy would go equally to both (though in my case: pretty much none).

Exactly. That is why I do not quite understand, why ED paid for so much, while it was Craig misusing peoples money,

maybe he just worked his argument twisting spiced with the usual lies long enough, it seems to have worked on lots of people way too long.

 

[sswam]

leaving this thread before I commit something regrettable. <general dislike>

 

[Timstertoo]

leaving this thread before I commit something regrettable. <general dislike>

Although I don't agree with your reasoning for defending Craig (mostly in other threads but no need to rehash), I do respect and appreciate that you stick up for someone you percieve as the victim even though you know it's not the popular viewpoint to have. And I certainly support your right to do so on a discussion forum. 

We pretty much do the same but we disagree about who's the victim and who's the (extremely passive ) agressor.

I don't see any amount of support for my point that would warrent any form of action from my side so I'll happily drop this idea and start enjoying my Pandora that should arrive tomorrow. (it was supposed to arrive before the end of today but at 16:00 the track and trace estimated delivery suddenly jumped a day later :rolleyes: ) 

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

...it was supposed to arrive before the end of today but at 16:00 the track and trace estimated delivery suddenly jumped a day later :rolleyes: ) 

Craig dead soul is haunting your Pandora there after it learns that you want to go after it

 

[Timstertoo]

...it was supposed to arrive before the end of today but at 16:00 the track and trace estimated delivery suddenly jumped a day later :rolleyes: ) 

Craig dead soul is haunting your Pandora there after it learns that you want to go after it

Worst thing was, the UPS truck comes by the same time just about every day so I had lured one of my tormenters to my place so he could be there when the thing that would never turn up turned up. 

So I showed him the track and trace and then refreshed it, and we both saw it jump a day which gave him one more day of ridicule. He made the most out of it, the bastard. 

Oh well, somehow it feels right this should also happen. Wonder what will go wrong tomorrow.  :blink: