can the Pandora readily meet my needs?


Agent K

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I've been doing a lot of research on here as well as elsewhere about the Pandora, I'd really like to get one, but I need to be fairly sure it can be setup to do what I want considering the cost.

I'm looking to do this with the least modifying  / fuss - ie not installing pandebian or rolling my own .pnd files for the programs I need etc.  I may want to do something like that down the road, but I need it to be a drop in (with minimal configuration changes) replacement for my current PDA.   I currently use a Palm IIIxe syncing with evolution on my Debian desktop via gpilot.  I miss having a keyboard on my pda, (old sharp wizard, no snyc abilities, thus the palm) and the Pandora seems to be the best candidate for something with a real keyboard that can snyc with a desktop Linux setup.  If there are better options for my needs that I should look at I'm open to suggestions.  I do really like the idea of having my 'pda' be more powerful than my current laptop, running my dos cad program on the road and other apps would be a bonus plus playing old Atari games would be cool.  I get that the Pandora is not a PDA, but a full on desktop Linux computer, but the form factor and the fact that it is a native Linux machine makes it seem like the perfect PDA replacement for me.


here's the condensed Verizon of my understanding on PIM apps (please correct / add any info that I'm missing / have wrong) my thinking is run the same program on the Pandora and the desktop, would make sync easier.

qorganizer - seems quite a few people use this on Pandora, but after running it on my PC I cant see that it has the month view like Evolution does where you can see the actual appointments, and thus is not a good candidate for me.

Sunbird - tried this one too, if memory serves correct the month view issue was similar to qorganizer

simpleagenda - might be able to work with this, but would need separate programs for other PIM functions, like address book

evolution -  would this even run on Pandora?  its a bit heavy to me, I only use it because it was the only program I could get to properly(ish) sync with the Palm way back when I set that up.  Also, I heard there are issues around trying to sync 2 computers Evo databases, something about the database having info on the host name encoded into it, causing errors when copied to another computer?

BORG -


http://mbcsoft.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=23&Itemid=38

I've messed around with this program a bit, being its a java .jar, that should be easy to run on the Pandora, right?  It's interface is something I can get use to easily, and has several other features that Evo doesn't so this is my preferred PIM.  Its designed to run in a window that 800x600 so the lower part of the window will be off the bottom of the Pandora's screen, but if I under stand correctly from a post I read here by holding one of the shoulder buttons and scrolling down with either a nub or the stylus I can scroll the virtual desktop down, like in the old days of Linux when we were dealing with crummy 2mb vid cards..... is that right?

Connectivity:

I don't have nor do I plan to have wireless in my house, from the user manual it appears there are many USB->Ethernet adapters that work with Pandora, but do they need me to download some special kernel modules? Or is it like most hardware on desktop Linux where there is a module already in the stock setup that auto loads when the hardware is plugged in?

I looked in the docs, and on the boards, but am still fuzzy on how connecting the Pandora as a USB mass storage device to my desktop works.  I'm guessing physically it hooks up just like an mp3 player etc, using the USB port (not the "A" host port).  But how does the NAND and the 2 SD cards show up?  Do they act like any other mass storage device, IE show up as /dev/sdX /dev/sdY /dev/sdZ, one device for each, NAND, SD1, SD2?  I read some posts about having a 'mass storage settings' on the Pandora, but it seemed they were aimed at getting Windows to recognize the Pandora correctly, is that not necessary for Linux?

SYNC:

my general plan is to have a directory tree on my desktop that synchronizes with the same tree on the Pandora, and storing all important data (like the PIM database etc) in those trees.

Rsync - as I understand it, there already exists a .pnd for rsync, which should make installation trivial.  I use rsync from a remote server to backup my desktop already, so I have some experience with it.  As I under stand it, rsync is only a one way operation, and thus I would have to sync PC -> Pandora and Pandora -> PC as 2 separate operations, depending on which was the 'up to date' one.  Not idea in that I might have some files on each that were newer than the ones on the other... 

Unison - claims to be bidirectional overcoming that limitation of rsync, I tried to use it, but ran into a major caveat, unison has to be installed on both machines, *and* has to be the exact same version to work properly.  I don't know if a .pnd exists, and I imagine regular updates to the desktop machine would quickly cause a version mismatch, I could always do a package hold on the unison package, but all this is contingent on unison being available for Pandora.

I saw other options like luckybackup, but it seems most of them are just derivatives of rsync / unison, usually with a snazzy GUI.  my initial thoughts on snyc was to have the Pandora operating as a computer on the network and sync as 2 separate networked machines, but I'm thinking that the Pandora could also be hooked to the PC as a USB mass storage device, and just snyc the 2 directories on one machine, would eliminate the "version mismatch" issues with unison.... 

Any thoughts / ideas / other ways  to do this?

Final thoughts:


- For sure I'm trying to stay with free (as in speech, and beer) software if at all possible.


- I run Debian (etch, but will upgrade to squeeze after getting this figured out)  on my desktop machine, do not have easy access to a windows machine.


- have not dug around in the system much since UDEV came along, but can do relatively simple shell scripts if needed to glue things together.


- preformed my testing using my etch desktop and or my squeeze laptop (sync testing etc)

Thank you to all who are willing to read my long post!  I hoped to be as descriptive as possible, at the unfortunate expense of brevity.  It is my hope that I can get a better sense of feasibility, and that the thread might help others that are looking to use the Pandora in a similar fashion.  I've never used discussion boards etc before,  I hope that I posted this in the correct area etc, unfortunately the link to the rules didn't work when I tried to follow it.
 
Connectivity:

I looked in the docs, and on the boards, but am still fuzzy on how connecting the Pandora as a USB mass storage device to my desktop works.  I'm guessing physically it hooks up just like an mp3 player etc, using the USB port (not the "A" host port).  But how does the NAND and the 2 SD cards show up?  Do they act like any other mass storage device, IE show up as /dev/sdX /dev/sdY /dev/sdZ, one device for each, NAND, SD1, SD2?  I read some posts about having a 'mass storage settings' on the Pandora, but it seemed they were aimed at getting Windows to recognize the Pandora correctly, is that not necessary for Linux?
It will physically connect to the computer with a usb cord plugged into the mini-usb port (next to the ext connector)

From there you just go to setting ---> enable mass storage and your sd card/cards will show up on the desktop like any other mass storage device. 

These steps will be necessary on linux as well, unless i'm missing something ( please corrected me if im wrong) 
 
well hello and welcome i have to say great post too bad a lot of that stuff i have never used of or heard of lol new Linux explorer here and mostly got it for hate to say it lol but playing games on tho go. but have found and learned a lot. anyways i am sure soon you will have the answers you seek (the people here are great)

only 1 thing i can help you out with my usb-Ethernet worked right off the bat a cheap trennet tu2-et100 not sure of the chipset in her but works great

only other thing i could have gave info on gotwake beat me too it:)
 
Welcome to the boards, and very well done for a considered, informed first post.

Its wonderful not to be reading "can pandora pda please help might buy to expensive" for the umpteenth time!

As to the mass storage function, you need a mini-B male to full-A male lead.

You plug your pandora into a host machine and choose SD mass storage from the menu

This then allows you to select one of your SD cards for external access.

The one you select will be unmounted and presented as an external harddrive (with multiple partitions if relevant) to the host machine.

When you've finished, you must first unmount (or at least sync) it from the host, then close to dialogue on the pandora.

Alternatively you can buy a separate USB SDHC card reader or connect your Pandora to your computer with an ethernet adaptor. scp is your friend.

As to device drivers, my experience has been mixed. Its possible to find separate kernel modules and organise things yourself, but it might be easier to consult the list here:

http://pandorawiki.org/USB_compatibility_list#USB_to_Ethernet_adapters

I can't really help with syncing or pda software as I haven't much used them.

As I moderator I can say that there is nothing wrong with your post, and we are looking at fixing the rules page.

The rules are fairly obvious:

  • no racism, sexism, homophobia
  • no blatant insults
  • no copyright infringement (even if indirect)
  • no profanity, pornography, shock images
  • avoid discussing politics, religion and the like
  • try not to take threads off topic
  • be nice.
In short, if its not something your granny (or employer) wouldn't be happy reading, don't post it here.

Many thanks again for doing your research, I'm sure you will be a real asset to the community :)
 
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As I moderator I can say that there is nothing wrong with your post, and we are looking at fixing the rules page.

The rules are fairly obvious:

  • no racism, sexism, homophobia
  • no blatant insults
  • no copyright infringement (even if indirect)
  • no profanity, pornography, shock images
  • avoid discussing politics, religion and the like
  • try not to take threads off topic
  • be nice.
In short, if its not something your granny (or employer) wouldn't be happy reading, don't post it here.

Many thanks again for doing your research, I'm sure you will be a real asset to the community :)
Off topic- How does the copyright infringement work? Every country has different IP laws
 
As I moderator I can say that there is nothing wrong with your post, and we are looking at fixing the rules page.

The rules are fairly obvious:

  • no racism, sexism, homophobia
  • no blatant insults
  • no copyright infringement (even if indirect)
  • no profanity, pornography, shock images
  • avoid discussing politics, religion and the like
  • try not to take threads off topic
  • be nice.
In short, if its not something your granny (or employer) wouldn't be happy reading, don't post it here.

Many thanks again for doing your research, I'm sure you will be a real asset to the community :)
Off topic- How does the copyright infringement work? Every country has different IP laws
It probably follows German law, since this server is in Germany.

From a practical point of view, it means not directing people to online content not available by the consent of the copyright holder (e.g. game cartridge dumps), and not claiming credit for a (loosely) artistic work that you didn't create.

For something more precise, you want ED or a lawyer ;)
 
As I moderator I can say that there is nothing wrong with your post, and we are looking at fixing the rules page.

The rules are fairly obvious:

  • no racism, sexism, homophobia
  • no blatant insults
  • no copyright infringement (even if indirect)
  • no profanity, pornography, shock images
  • avoid discussing politics, religion and the like
  • try not to take threads off topic
  • be nice.
In short, if its not something your granny (or employer) wouldn't be happy reading, don't post it here.

Many thanks again for doing your research, I'm sure you will be a real asset to the community :)
Off topic- How does the copyright infringement work? Every country has different IP laws
It probably follows German law, since this server is in Germany.

From a practical point of view, it means not directing people to online content not available by the consent of the copyright holder (e.g. game cartridge dumps), and not claiming credit for a (loosely) artistic work that you didn't create.

For something more precise, you want ED or a lawyer ;)
Well my father is an IP lawyer and I do paper work for him from time to time, so just wondering.

Thanks for the answer Blinky, it's what I figured it meant.   ;)

Back on topic! 
 
Sure BORG is a jar file but its a jar installer if I remember correctly, so you either need to install it in NAND or... modify the original program to make sure it can be run from a PND. Not sure what is possible there.
 
I just ran the BORG Installer on my Pandora and it installed just fine (though it complained about not being able to +x the run script on my FAT32 based card :) )

The program itself seems to run fine and also seems to fit itself nicely to the screen.  I haven't explored it a great deal but I have yet to find any dialog boxes that don't fit on the screen.

I may see if I can PND it up and upload it to the repo.   I guess that recent PandoraLive article may come in handy. :)

- Neelix
 
Thanks for the warm welcomes, all the helpful thoughts and comments!   After some more experimenting I've come to the conclusion that sync is best done with unison, having the Pandora act as a external disk.  ​

Binky, If I understand you correctly, I can only have -one- of the 2 SD cards available to my PC at a time?  Not a deal breaker for sure, just making sure I under stand correctly.   Sounds similar to how I mount and use my Nook (unit having to be 'on' and in 'USB storage mode') other than the 2 card bit.​

ekianjo - You are correct, BORG comes as a .jar installer, it installs borg.jar in a directory under your home directory, I had planned to tarball all that and drop it on a SD card.   Does it need to be packaged as a .pnd?  I was just thinking with the card mounted I could put a launcher on the desktop, something along the lines of "java -jar /path/to/borg.jar"  and in BORG set the data storage directory to something I made on the SD card, would this not work?​



I'm a bit confused as to how the file system tree looks on a Pandora, I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume the NAND is mounted at '/' but where do the 2 SD cards mount in the tree?  Do they mount automatically upon insertion, and are their mount points in the /etc/fstab file?   I'm thinking specifically about how to handle BORG, I'm also looking down the line how to have dosbox find my DOS cad program etc...  ​


Neelix.... just saw your post as I was about to paste this in, thanks for checking it out, that's a big relief that it was so easy to get running.... I really appreciate the testing!​
 
Binky, If I understand you correctly, I can only have -one- of the 2 SD cards available to my PC at a time? Not a deal breaker for sure, just making sure I under stand correctly. Sounds similar to how I mount and use my Nook (unit having to be 'on' and in 'USB storage mode') other than the 2 card bit.
That's correct, but there are ways around that, if you are willing to take the time to set them up.


Personally I use USB Networking to establish a TCP/IP connection between the two, then use Gigolo to mount the pandora's whole rootfs via sshftp.   (Edit: This has the advantage of not having to unmount the card to transfer data, which is useful since I'm usually running at least one PND from it in the background)

ekianjo - You are correct, BORG comes as a .jar installer, it installs borg.jar in a directory under your home directory, I had planned to tarball all that and drop it on a SD card. Does it need to be packaged as a .pnd? I was just thinking with the card mounted I could put a launcher on the desktop, something along the lines of "java -jar /path/to/borg.jar" and in BORG set the data storage directory to something I made on the SD card, would this not work?


...


Neelix.... just saw your post as I was about to paste this in, thanks for checking it out, that's a big relief that it was so easy to get running.... I really appreciate the testing!
You're Welcome. The way you propose should work just fine, putting it in a PND just makes installation a lot easier for anyone else who wants to use it. (Edit: and provides a way to neatly keep both application and data off the NAND.)


One thing to be aware of is that Java doesn't come installed by default, There is a Java installer PND available in the repo that you can use to install either OpenJDK or Oracle Java. (it installs to the SD card and puts a small run script on the NAND)

I'm a bit confused as to how the file system tree looks on a Pandora, I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume the NAND is mounted at '/' but where do the 2 SD cards mount in the tree? Do they mount automatically upon insertion, and are their mount points in the /etc/fstab file? I'm thinking specifically about how to handle BORG, I'm also looking down the line how to have dosbox find my DOS cad program etc...
Named cards are auto-mounted under /media as /media/CARDNAME


Unnamed cards are mounted as /media/mmcblk[x]p[y] where x is the card number and y is the partition number. Card number in this case usually being 0 or 1 and determined by order of insertion.


So if the first card you insert has a single unnamed partition it would be /media/mmcblk0p1


- Neelix
 
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The internal NAND makes up most of the root filesystem.

If you name your SD card partitions (which I advise) then they will end up in /media/partitionname/

Multiple partitions, multiple mountpoints. Simple.

pnd files (packages) live in /media/partitionname/pandora/menu/

(replace menu with apps or desktop to taste)

There is a daemon which scans those directories for pnds, generates .desktop files which call the pnd_run script.

This mounts the pnd (generally a squashFS) in /mnt/ as read only while the pnd is running

/media/partitionname/pandora/appname/ is the default place for apps to store settings, as your home directory is on the 512MB NAND

There is a temporary symlink to this somewhere in /mnt/utmp, I believe.

Other directories in /media/partitionname/ are controlled entirely by the user

You can also write your random stuff to the NAND, but this will tend to cause a shortage of disk space.

Alternatively, you can boot from an SD card, and use that as /
 
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I haven't used unison for years, but you should be able to sync without having unison on the pandora. Just connect the pandora via usb in mass-storage mode, then tell unison on the PC to synchronize the newly mounted directory with your PC's PIM directory.


This contains instructions to sync two directories on the same machine


http://www.linuxhowtos.org/Tips%20and%20Tricks/unison.htm


Haven't used any of that PIM software yet.
 
I just ran the BORG Installer on my Pandora and it installed just fine (though it complained about not being able to +x the run script on my FAT32 based card :) )

The program itself seems to run fine and also seems to fit itself nicely to the screen.  I haven't explored it a great deal but I have yet to find any dialog boxes that don't fit on the screen.

I may see if I can PND it up and upload it to the repo.   I guess that recent PandoraLive article may come in handy. :)

- Neelix
That would be great, Neelix....just looked at the program website and saw screenshots...looks pretty good....would be fun to try it...

@ Agent K

FWIW, I use my little Apple USB ethernet adapter and it worked great after plugging it in and enabling the USB Host option....
 
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Neelix,  Thanks again, very useful stuff, its funny I was looking at  sshftp  just before reading your post.   If USB networking doesn't take me too long to setup that sounds like a really clean way to do it, as my network hub is across the room from my PC and I'd need yet another cable floating around to use Ethernet.  Good point about the running PND's had not even thought about that being an obvious issue with unmounting a card, noticed there are pnd's that fit into that 'running in the background' category.  Before posting this thread I had looked around a bit and found that there was a PND for java, again good information on the how it sets up, gives me a better idea of what I'll be dealing with.​

Neelix / Binky   -very- good info on the file hierarchy, I totally get it now!  Much appreciated!  It is clear to me now that having volume names for your cards is a must for consistency.    I'm thinking that in some ways making /home simlink to /media/cardname/home  could be a great way to prevent extra writes to the NAND and prevent fill-up, but the down side is the mess caused if you ever eject that card...​

klapse - thanks for sharing your experiences,  its looking like the consensus is that mounting the Pandora partitions locally on the PC is the best way to go, really does simplify things for sure.​

ArchiMark - good to know, compatibility lists are great, but hearing first hand that a device still works is the best, TY.​



I'm all in, now to just decide if I'm going to buy it from Link or ED.  Does it help out with clearing the pre-order queues the same either way?   I vaguely remember reading something about ED's profits going completely toward that goal.  Any thoughts on buying SD cards?  If the card you get is formatted in that non useable MS format, can I just use the Pandora to reformat it, like I would with anything else, or does that format literally prevent the Pandora from seeing the card at the /dev level?  Just to be a broken record, thanks so very much for the time and effort you all put into your replies, it really helped me learn more about the device, and be far more confident in spending, what for me is a large amount of money on it.   I'm confident now that it will take very little time and effort to get the Pandora to replace the functions of my Palm.  I also am excited to as time permits start doing all the things on the Panda that the Palm cant :)
 
ExFAT support is available (see http://repo.openpandora.org/?page=detail&app=exfat.wb), but you'll probably not want to use that filesystem since it sucks - although it's nice to have support for it in case you need to read someone else's card in an emergency. You can use the Pandora to partition and format your SD cards, e.g. using GParted.

Before you buy expensive SD cards, be sure to check whether they'll work - normally it should, but you never know. Also note that the speed of the card is limited in the Pandora (to about 14MB/s or something like that), so there's no need to buy superfast cards if you're planning to use them only in your Pandora.
 
Yes if YOU'RE in the USA go ahead and order from link. :) If you end up with issues he can provide faster turnaround. Besides, North America is his "territory".
 
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